Good & Bad Competitions
A couple different competitions have popped up on my radar in the last week. One is a poster contest by the AIGA and the other is a logo contest by an online radio station. One is exclusive and the other is all inclusive. From what I can tell, you have to be an AIGA member to enter the World Day of Design poster contest. Absolutely anyone can enter a submission into Radio Paradise’s logo contest.
Bad I have been listening to Radio Paradise every day at work for over a year now. It is labeled as “eclectic online rock radio” and I love it. Of course I don’t love all the music on Radio Paradise, but it is very diverse and the music selection never ceases to amaze me. I was fairly disappointed with RP’s choice to try and get their new logo through a competition. I thought with such an appreciation for creativity, they would show a little more respect for design. I wanted to start a discussion on this website, but I found something even better. . . An all out discussion/controversy on RP’s own forum.
A few designers have voiced their disdain and the majority of the other participants don’t really care what the designers are saying. I think the consensus so far is that RP is a “listen supported” community, and what better way to support that community then with your talents. There were some very valid points made by several designers, some designers were all for the contest, but the non-designers didn’t see the damage competitions like this do to the design profession as a whole. One of these designers had a link to a great article on Creative Latitude explaining why competitions like this are detrimental. I submitted a few comments and the some of following interaction has been enlightening. I would encourage everyone to read some (it is over 200s comments at this point) of the discussion that has been happening over the last few weeks. It is rare to see an online discussion between designers and non-designers.
Good I was inspired to create after getting a packet in the mail about AIGA’s World Day of Design contest. The AIGA is getting on board with many other countries that already honor the World Day of Design. The theme for the poster contest is diversity. One problem is that it seems like such a short notice to get a submission in by the end of this month. With the short notice and the fact that only AIGA members can enter, it seems to really narrow the field down. Of course all the designers I know would leave it to the last week anyway.
One of the things I noticed in the mailer is that you can only submit entries as a PDF or InDesign format. When I opened the downloadable template for the poster I found that the only template included is in InDesign CS. I guess if you only have InDeseign 2.0 you are out of luck, since InDesign CS isn’t backwards compatable. I am always encouraged when an effort is made to replace Quark with InDesign, but this seems to be going a bit too far. Of course, Quark hasn’t done our industry any favors for at least the last five years, but that is no excuse to exclude possible participants. I will get off my Adobe soap box now. Adobe is a major sponsor, so I don’t think the AIGA is making to big of a leap here.
It is encouraging to see a poster contest in the midst of the multitude of AIGA branding and business events. Like I mentioned in Creation, Authorship and Christmas Cards, it is important to keep a heathy balance of business and creativity.
Sharpen your multi-colored pencils and summon up your best concept to celebrate design and diversity. I would encourage everyone to stray away from contests like the one on Radio Paradise, but at least they are not making a profit from this contest. Whatever you do, keep you mind active.
January 23rd, 2005 at 1:13 am
If you go to Radio Paradise to read the discussion you might have to click back through a couple of pages to find anything resembling an intelligent discussion. There has been interesting discussions throughout the entire thread. I joined the conversation around comment 130-180.
I can’t say that I have made any impact on what people think about our profession in the forum. They are pretty brutal. Apparently, what we do as designers could be done by “a kid with a crayon”. I guess we have a long way to go to convince people that design is valuable. I will keep on fighting.
January 23rd, 2005 at 1:08 pm
As always, I will state:
With graphic design, you get what you pay for.
January 24th, 2005 at 1:59 pm
I didn’t read all the comments over there, but yeah, what I did read sounded pretty brutal. I think Radio Paradise should at least hire a professional to judge the entries. Keep up the good fight…
January 25th, 2005 at 11:38 am
I love Radio Paradise. They’re the internet radio station I always tune to first. I hope I don’t have to look at an awful logo every time I visit their site.
My wife thinks I’m crazy for not wanting to read particular magazines or books because I don’t like their layout and design. I know this isn’t Bennett’s emphasis, but does anyone else share this same quirk?
I started to read the links yesterday, but haven’t been able to finish them yet. Interesting nonetheless.
January 27th, 2005 at 9:05 am
I was thinking that I had made no impact on the Radio Paradise discussion until I received an email from a listener that had been on the other side of the argument. I don’t think I totally changed his mind, but at least I helped him see another perspective. Here is a little section of his email.
*I do understand your point. I still don’t think I can quite object to our little RP bunch asking for and/or offering designs for our common radio good, but I at least understand your point.*
*Thanks for a bit of horizon-broadening.*
January 27th, 2005 at 10:49 pm
Just an update on a couple of things in this article.
The AIGA poster deadline has been extended to February 4th.
The specifications on the AIGA website makes the following statement that seems to be saying that you can design in programs other than InDesign. I don’t think it is very clear.
*The template is created in InDesign. Even if the designer does not work in InDesign, since each chapter was sent a copy of the program last year, an Illustrator or other file can be imported into the template.*
Kyle: I don’t think it is going to be very hard for Radio Paradise to improve upon their logo. They most definitely need a new logo. I think the owner/operator, Bill, did all of the design himself. I’ve heard him say that he has done the design himself, and he’s not very proud of it. Even if they get a good logo out of the contest, I still think that the contest isn’t a great idea.
January 28th, 2005 at 1:10 pm
Bennett-
Like I tried to communicate on the RP thread, I don’t think the contest is a detriment to the design community as a whole. Tthere are other things that are far more of a drain than a web community’s logo contest. Putting the call out to their own community is a choice that Bill (and probably Rebecca) made on their own, and I’m sure they are aware of both the good and bad that can come from it.
That being said, seeing your posts in the thread (and checking your profile because of it) has brought me here to the “beadesigngroup” site/blog. I’m looking forward to reading more from all of you here.
Oh… and for those of you who are curious… graphic designer/art director for now over 12 years, and currently working in design education at the college level as well.
January 28th, 2005 at 1:20 pm
Just had to come back…
Ironically enough, two PRIME examples of things I find are more of a detriment to the graphic design industry as a whole were right here on your website. In your sponsored ad links provided by google…
Custom Graphic Design
Brochures, Print Presentations, Ads We Do It All. Great Rates & Input!
Expert Graphic Designers Professional Print Media Designing Free With Your Printing Order
January 28th, 2005 at 9:50 pm
newwavegurly,
Touch√à. Good catch. I’ve often wondered what people think of our google ads. I don’t even see those google ads anymore. I guess I could talk about how they help us make a tiny bit of money to pay for the web hosting and such, but I guess practicality doesn’t matter when you are talking about idealism. Of course we don’t dertermine what shows up on the google ad space, google does. The two you pointed out probably are bad for the industry. Worse than a logo competition? In this case, maybe. The idea of “Free design with Printing” doesn’t exactly promote the value of design.
I still think that a logo design competition is bad for design, even if it is for a listener supported radio community. It takes the design process and turns it into a multitude of abrupt statements as opposed to a conversation between client and designer. It also represents a bad example to all those business owners who respect Radio Paradise and their view of creativity. I would be curious as to how Bill has Radio Paradise set up financially. Is it not-for-profit and will it always be that way? If he is making a salary and living, shouldn’t he make an investment and pay for design? If the logo is succesful, Radio Paradise becomes hugely popular, and a multitude of people start contributing, will RP reimburse the designer for what a logo is actually worth? Maybe I am alone in this viewpoint amongst the authors of Be A Design Group. I would be interested to find out.
Thanks for commenting on our site. I look forward to reading more of your comments. I also appreciate you sticking up for my “Avatar” on Radio Paradise. I really didn’t feel like defending it at that point, but I appreciate that you did.
January 29th, 2005 at 10:27 am
I guess I have mixed feelings about the logo contest. I am a pretty competitive person, so I always think there are more benefits than harm that comes out of competition. If Radio Paradise hired a group of designers (like Be A Design Group, for example!) to be judges, I think the competition could be even more beneficial than a regular designer/client relationship. If the contest didn’t result in any fantastic designs, then the design judges could evaluate what worked and what didn’t, and why. Then they could design a logo incorporating the good ideas that came from the RP community. Another benefit might be that when non-designers make an effort to make a logo they learn about our work, and maybe even realize that it is a more difficlt job than they thought.
About the Google ads. The unfortunate truth is that it takes money to run a website. Google ads are great for our site because advertisers aren’t knocking down the door to sponsor us. The graphic design ads definitely aren’t helping our field and I hope there isn’t a perception that we endorse everything that is advertised on our site. If you guys agree that the design ads do more damage than good to our site, I think I can filter out ads that use certain keywords.
When our Google Ad money starts building up, I thought about using it for a design contest of some kind. There is something ironic about that…
January 29th, 2005 at 4:40 pm
My fears and concerns have just been proven on the latest post by the operators of Radio Paradise. This is the first sentence of the post that is extending the entry deadline one more month. “We’ve been overwhelmed by the quality (& quantity!) of the response to our logo design contest.” Notice the emphasis on quantity. They go on to say that they have thought through some things more and have some more specifications for what the logo should and should not incorporate. All of these things should have been made clear from the onset. Many times this happens in a designer/client relationship, but usually the designer is able to ask appropriate questions and figure out a general direction for the design. Now instead of one designer making revisions it is well over one hundred. Inefficient.
If we need any more proof that these competitions produce bad results just look at the “three submissions that we particularly like:” If these are the most successful out of the hundreds entered then help us all. They all incorporate trends that have been dead for over five years and never should have been used in the first place (Bubble letters, swooshes and the bouncing circle). Besides the fact that none of them really capture the spirit of Radio Paradise.
Another thing that bothers me about this contest is this statement that they made. “All entries, including the winning one, become the property of Radio Paradise.” Why do they need to own every entry? Shouldn’t they be happy with the one they choose? Shouldn’t the designers be able to use their logo that wasn’t picked for something else? Maybe they just want to have the right to Frankenstein a few different of the entries into something they like? There aren’t many things that I hate more than mashing my design with someone else’s.
I have worked at a company where many of the designs were created by competitions and I can tell you that it didn’t produce good results. Competitions like this make a designer feel that only one person in the group would be able to do the appropriate design and every one else doesn’t measure up.
Competitions can be good, but only when they promote design not devalue it (i.e. the AIGA poster contest). A design competition that is created to inspire designers, may not change the world, but at least it gives designers a chance to create and think without restrictions and clients. A logo competition like RP’s still has all the constraints that our everyday jobs encompass, but you have to work without proper pay, client interaction or the knowledge that what you are doing will ever be used.
January 29th, 2005 at 4:55 pm
It is like every project-gone-bad I have ever had. Rather than giving you input in the first place, the client waits until you show them something. First, they pick the worst designs you show them as examples that they sort-of like. They don’t tell you what they like about the garbage but they tell you what they DON’T like about what you showed them that was actually good. What a waste.
January 29th, 2005 at 5:35 pm
Unfortunately, I haven’t lived in the idealized world that you guys seem to be in. There have been far too many times where I’ve had to design a logo that was not of my own creative direction (whether due to the client or a creative director √≥ sometimes who is not a designer by trade themselves) or one that I would have designed if my advice had been taken. Very often, a client doesn’t know what they do want √≥ even if I’ve asked them the “right” questions √≥ until they see what it is they don’t want.
Yes, I’ve explained to my clients (or creative directors) why the design that they are presented with is the most appropriate solution for what they need… often times to no avail.
Ultimately, Bill and Rebecca are the clients in the instance of the logo contest for RP, and it is their taste in how the station should be represented that will be communicated, just like it would for any other business owner.
I agree, I don’t think any of the three logos that they have shown are anything that I would see as the personality that should be portrayed for RP, but it’s not my decision to make. I haven’t agreed with logo changes and website re-designs for RP that have happened in the past either. None of that is going to stop me from listening to the music or participating on the site in any manner… and I think there are sites/web communities out there that continue to keep (and gain) participants and supporters that are FAR worse than anything RP could do in choosing one of these logos.
——————-
I completely understand about the google ads. It was just a little too ironic for me to let go.
——————-
Bennett, as for your avatar and my sticking up for it… people who are not artists of some sort don’t necessarily understand the idea of “found art” or the way the vernacular of a particular area effects design/illustration/photography/typography. I’m not adverse to educating lay-people (is that even a word?), especially when they’re friends of mine.
January 31st, 2005 at 1:03 am
newwavegurly,
I don’t live in an idealized world. I work for a small agency, with small clients who usually have small budgets, with little vision. In rare cases a client takes a design as it is. When this happens it is a happy day. If the client wants changes, then I work hard to do the best design while still making the client happy. The thing that blew me away with the Radio Paradise changes was the sheer number of them. I have never worked for a client with so few stipulations in the beginning, and so many revisions in the end. This is what competitions like this breed.
Another thing that these competitions do is take away all of the immediate interaction with the client. Many times it takes a good presentation to be able to get a great design approved. I don’t always get to present my work to the client, but at least my boss can convey what I was thinking. It is helpful for a designer to be there to help the client recognize what the logo should be as opposed to what they expected it to be. Not that the designer is always right, but sometimes the client rejects a logo for reasons they don’t even realize. Maybe a little tweak in color or a shift in typeface can make all the difference.
January 31st, 2005 at 10:44 am
Yes, that indeed is a happy day. The fact that a client might actually use us for the reason they hired us for, our expertise, is a JOYOUS day!
I understand about the RP thing. I do wonder how they would (would have?) responded to some of the designers actually asking the questions that needed to be asked and if that would have helped.
As for these competitions taking away the immediate interaction with the client, I agree. But that goes for ALL competitions, whether on the scale the RP competition is or if AIGA, “Print”, or someone comparable runs the competition.
I agree, it always helps to have the designer there to actually present the work to the client, no matter who they are. This is one of the reasons that EVERY student has to present their work in my classes. One of the main things I try to get across to them is that they need to be able to speak appropriately and intelligently about their work.
February 1st, 2005 at 11:06 am
newwavegurly,
You say you understand “about the RP thing”. Do you? You write “I don’t think the contest is a detriment to the design community as a whole”. While I agree that there are other things that ALSO devalue design, contests most surely do. May I suggest that we stay focused on this alone for now?
Personally, I think its a bit scary that you’re a senior creative with this outlook and scarier still that you’re nurturing a whole new generation of designers as an educator at your college. There’s only one thing worse than a client who doesn’t value design – and that’s a designer who doesn’t.
I just don’t know how many ways it can be said – Bennett and most others here, as well as a few (very few) on the RP thread have said it as clearly as possible. I just don’t think its being heard.
February 1st, 2005 at 10:35 pm
Airboy-
Are you saying that the “free” work done for an AIGA contest or some other graphic design/artist geared organization contest is devaluing graphic design as well, or does that escape the generalization because they’re run by those types of organizations? I mean, let’s get to business here, is it only contests for organizations like RP that devalue what we do for a living?
I think that one of the main things that devalues graphic design, truth be told, are those out there that offer their “design services” at an extremely cut rate just to get a piece of business. How are we as designers supposed to put a decent value to what we do when there are people out there who constantly offer to do a job for half the price (and usually with nowhere near the quality)? Until one is required to have a degree in graphic design to actually “practice” it, or is required to obtain an additional certification in it (like Architects), as has been debated for years, there are going to be those out there that offer to do the job for far less than is appropriate for the type of work we know should be done.
HOW DARE you say I don’t value design. I most certainly do, and counsel my students accordingly. But I do think that what has happened over at RP has gotten way out of control because of inflamatory statements made there by people like you.
I was going to ramble on about the postings that have been made at RP, among other things, but I’m done with this now. You’ve left me with a rather bitter taste that will probably keep me from posting here at Be A Design Group for a while as well.
I wish you luck with your part-time education endeavors as well as your graphic design/art direction work.
February 2nd, 2005 at 7:27 pm
I’m sorry. I really must be missing something. I simply don’t see how one can be a proponent of valued design while one is, at the same time, among the most vocal opposition (as you are in the RP forums) to any suggestions that even small, non-profit concerns like RP could benefit from an established design process.
Logo competitions DO devalue the profession of design. Period. Always have, always will. All clients, small or large, owe it to THEMSELVES to think about their communication needs, then do their best to articulate them in a creative brief (or whatever you prefer to call it), research experienced and reputable designers or firms, issue an RFP or solicit expressions of interest, and then work with the chosen designer to develop the best solution. Even if money never changes hands.
re: the other part of your post – I certainly don’t disagree that there are other issues as well but there just ain’t enough time for that…
February 3rd, 2005 at 9:46 am
So I’ve been waiting a bit in the wings on this particular discussion, but keep coming back to it with a specific spectre in mind that seems to haunt this concern: the unionization of or at least the mental unionization of our field.
We operate at the moment with a casually-based optional “union” of sorts in the forms of the AIGA and the GAG – both bodies that continue to monitor and attempt to record the variety, scope, and pricing of the work that we do with any sort of regularity. Neither explicitly sets the price point / value point in such a way that none of us can sway from it without incurring some sort of fine / wrist slap, but both try to give a good median sense of what costs what (at least from an L.A. or NYC market sense).
We’re all to one degree or another towing the line of both of these organizations in regards to competitions of this sort – it’s definitely in the AIGA / GAG’s best interest to state that things done in opposition to what they’re tracking / declaring devalues the heart of their client base and member base (it’s a trickle-down reward for members as well, but it primarily protects the larger identity we may or may not be part of).
While it’s not entirely unpleasant to see that people are sticking up for the cause here and on RP, we’ve all also been able to watch “public reaction” to this line of thinking: who are you people to tell the rest of us what we can and can’t design for? Not to mention what we have to pay for it in every instance?
We do not have the benefit (or detriment) of a common rate card that we’ve all approved and adhere to, or any sort of entrance exam that dictates what basic quality level is necessary and required to practice in this field – the field bleeds into a thousand smaller, newer, good & bad varieties of itself every day.
What I fear happening in this weirdly self-conscious urge to qualify and defend our ability / work quality again and again, especially when it’s done in one way or another as an attack on inexpensive / lesser work, is an ugly tendency I watched daily in a former employer: the egomaniacally paranoid fear that somebody is always stealing your work and the compulsive belief that you’re the only show in town worth seeing. The designers that are worth their salt in one sense or another will continue to work and continue to interface with clients; those that don’t drop off the grid – and in the grand scheme of this, I just can’t see that this competition has robbed any of our personal pockets.
I suspect there’s also a little kinship of opinion between newwavegurly and I as she mentioned being a design educator as well as practitioner – as I watch my students make waves and take dives on a daily basis I honestly have to say that I wish them all success and profitable employment, even though I know this won’t be exactly the reality for every single one of them. This business is simply a constant fight and climb, and you have to be willing to start on some rung and see what sort of attention you can grab from that point – if you get the right attention for long enough, you can do pretty well, and if not, you’ll simply wither and fade into the background. Contests of this nature are explicitly a call to the amateurs among the ranks to toss something into the hat and see what happens.
Underlying most of this discussion is also the ghost of how much or little sense of graphic / image quality a broader audience really has – we can gnash and grit our teeth time and again in arguments about what’s visually better, more appropriate, more suited, more clearly addressed, etc., but we’re always going to face the ethereal walls of “taste”.
Frankly, the proof is the pudding on this issue: knowing that the quality of much of our work supercedes the work that we’re dissing on RP, put it in the mix and then be satisfied with what either does or doesn’t happen as a result of that. Better yet, next time we see a grass-roots effort like this getting off the ground and want them to understand the amazing resource available within the design community before turning to a competition to gain an identity, pitch your services or at the very least offer your counsel on how they can attract the appropriate quality of work while still meeting their budgetary needs.
February 3rd, 2005 at 9:51 am
One other note: newwave also points the perfect finger back at the AIGA / GAG who are only too happy to sponsor similar freebie contests that gladly promote the identity and supremacy of the AIGA without offering any guaranteed recompense to the submitters either – does that value design simply because they happen to be an organization that routinely supports it, or does it just devalue design along a different agenda?
(Plus, don’t we all more or less consider these sorts of things “portfolio helper”? – those one-shot gigs that allow us the creative excuse to do something we’ve wanted to do for a while but might not have been able to get the right client for?)
February 3rd, 2005 at 1:54 pm
Paul,
Just a few thoughts about what you have said. I didn’t address all of your points. Maybe at a later date.
Newwavegurly wasn’t really pointing any perfect finger back at anyone. The AIGA poster contest has been part of this thread the entire time. It wasn’t some new realization. Don’t call it a come back . . . Of course the AIGA and GAG aren’t perfect just because of the kind of organization they are. The nature of these two competitions are vastly different. The AIGA competition has no clients or revisions, and there is no specification as to what you have to design. Paul, you are correct. It is perfect excuse to do what designers aren’t able to do for clients. Bottom line, this contest promotes creativity and design. The AIGA isn’t trying to get and identity or brochure out of free speculative work. The main goal of the AIGA competition is to promote design by giving designers a chance to flex their creative muscle, and to get the public out to see these posters in a show.
The RP contest is soliciting (practically) free design with no real benefits to the designer. Unless you believe their promise of world wide acclaim. The AIGA WDD Poster Contest is a unique freedom from constraints, there will be multiple winners, whereas the RP logo contest is everything but ideal.
Although the financial impact of the RP contest may not be felt, the overall impression it gives to its dedicated listeners is far worse. So many listeners respect RP’s Bill and Rebecca decisions and view of creativity. This gives the impression that one of your most valuable commodities, your identity, can be gained through a little contest without much thought. The exponential effect of this could be great. I just hope that small business owners don’t come away from RP thinking that since they don’t make much money and they have a dedicated following, that they can have a contest for any design that they need.
Obviously designers as a whole have a long way to go to convince the public that design is a valuable commodity. I don’t know how many times I read something like this on the RP threads “Chill out, it is just a logo” Just a logo. Just you image. Just something you will use for the next ten years. Just your future. Just . . . Maybe in the end RP will get a great logo and in turn get enough new listeners and support to pay for design in the future. Maybe all the controversy over at RP will make RP rethink the way they solicit design in the future.
February 3rd, 2005 at 2:02 pm
Paul again, I hope I’m not stepping too far into personal territory with these next questions. I know that before you went to Grad School you entered a logo competition for a fairly well known musician. Does this experience effect your view of similar competitions? Did you come away from that specific competition with positive or negative feelings?
February 3rd, 2005 at 9:49 pm
I don’t think that’s too personal a question at all, Bennett, and that competition was a bit on my mind when I considered this issue.
All in all, I think that particular competition was fairly poorly managed and I had similarly disappointed reactions to the work that I saw posted as the “picks” of the litter – stuff I found extremely mediocre for the performer in question, but stuff that the performer reacted fairly glowingly to…
I wondered in that example, though, how much the things that the performer had seen that I found kind of amateur and not that interesting really had an authenticly DIY appeal to them to the performer. I know there had to be a bunch of other practicing designers that must have thrown their contribution in at one point or another, and I kind of suspect that they felt too polished in one way or another for the artist.
The results of that competition were ultimately pretty insignificant, though – despite discussion about a logo / personal mark coming out of the competition that would go into use for the performer, I never saw anything reach the light of day from the selection bin. It occured in the midst of a website overhaul anyway, so I suspect it was something that simply got canned in the midst of other developments and recording responsibilities.
To speak perfectly candidly, I definitely felt like I had contributed some solid work to the competition and really hoped my work would show up somewhere in the picks – not a hope that panned out by any means…Some of my reaction to the other things shown I know was discolored by the knowledge mine had been ashcanned for one reason or another, but then I also quickly felt like I hadn’t any sense of what the final selection criteria was based on what had been chosen.
All that said, it didn’t really burn my biscuits on competitions to such a large degree that I’ve never considered entering them again. I went into that particular competition thinking “Wow, what a great opportunity to try and get some good work in front of that performer – I like their work a great deal and it’d be more than great if they happened to like mine” – visions of fame and some small fortune definitely did a jig or two in my brain, even though reality quickly eclipsed that particular dance party.
“Although the financial impact of the RP contest may not be felt, the overall impression it gives to its dedicated listeners is far worse. So many listeners respect RP’s Bill and Rebecca decisions and view of creativity. This gives the impression that one of your most valuable commodities, your identity, can be gained through a little contest without much thought.” – I think we really need to cut Bill and Rebecca a lot more slack on this issue. I don’t believe based on anything that’s been stated on their site that they’re utilizing this competition / call for work as a measuring stick for creativity, but I clearly see them attempting to champion the same sort of thinking and grass-roots efforts that they have taken to make RP what it is in their identity contest.
On the topic of logo-creation / identity design, though, it’s a business that’s equal parts sincere, thoughtful idea / image expression and the selling of lucky rabbit’s feet – there are some outstanding examples of exceptionally designed marks that have really stood the test of time and gained some major equity along the road, and there are some amazing stinkbombs that have stuck around about as long. Despite the profound presence that logos have in our daily lives, they’re still largely viewed as a triviality to most people (most of whom are directly bonded to at least three major logos that they knowledgeably display or wear unawares…). Logo contests are going to fall on par with drawing contests and coloring contests to most, Bennett – fun diversions from the things that most people spend the majority of their time doing.
Logos only acrue the value that’s attributed to them and invested in them – the more esteem they’re held in, and the more people holding that esteem, the richer an entity they become. The less esteem and value, the more trivial and innocuous they tend to remain…The description of them as a future only holds water to someone who is even initially willing to invest in the notion of them as being a future, and this really depends on how visually responsive someone is (or how willing they are to understand that major elements of their audience might be).
All of this wraps back around to elements of so many previous discussions in terms of that killer moment when you try to explain what you do to most people – it’s generally easier to demonstrate it when you exercise your skills towards a concern / need that they have, but there are still large portions of it that are “invisible”/cognitive processes that can’t be totally observed or measured. The thought that someone gets paid to work on these little .5″ – 1″ symbols that show up on products floats somewhere in the same genre as the notion that small elves labor for hours daily in a tree trunk producing chocolate-backed cookies – strange fiction that few people ever observe in process or in the flesh…
I guess I’d also like to throw the personal question back in your direction, Bennett – do you feel like you’ve been significantly burned by past competitions like this, or if not, what especially motivated you to call this one to attention?
To raise another potential hot-button within this, how do you feel about many of the major trade publication “contests / competitions”, i.e. Print, HOW, CA Design Annuals and similar ilk? I’ve had some fairly heated discussions on the subject of the pay-per-entry ticket prices for these and their ultimate significance / insignificance…
February 3rd, 2005 at 11:50 pm
I’m a late entry into this conversation, and haven’t browsed the comments on RP, but I have one comment that I think might still be intelligible… I hope.
Some comments have touched on it, but I want to highlight the area of WHAT we give to clients for a second. I don’t believe that what we give to clients is always something we produce. In this case the best design help for the low-budget RP identity would be to hire a designer to design the CONTEST. Probably in a one-hour consultation, any of us could have helped the station owners design the process of the contest for the best hopes of success given the circumstances. Still not a great solution, but one that fit their desires… no matter how misguided they are.
It bothers me that their goal was to get a new logo. Is that it? Does that need justify design? Shouldn’t their goals have been something more like “a 10% increase in revenue in 6months” or “a 5% increase in listeners in a year”? What we give to them that is valuable, is not a new logo, but the ability to solve communication problems that reach their business goals.
Maybe too many of us have only been selling logos and brochures instead of selling communication. It’s sort of like selling someone a new $5,000 ergonomic chair when a better solution would be to change how they work, so that they don’t sit slumped over a computer for 10 hours a day, while getting no excercise.
Until RP is willing to admit their need for help in addressing real issues, I don’t think we can offer them anything. If they just want a “cool” new logo, we do ourselves a disservice by saying “we’re the ones for that.” Hopefully just pooping out logos (whether they are on a $3 million budget or for free) is not what we are about.
February 4th, 2005 at 2:41 pm
Clint, Thank you for your thoughts. A very “intelligible” and unique view point. It is going to take a while for all of that to soak in.
Paul, I haven’t especially been burned by similar competitions that I have competed in. Yes, that’s right, I have competed in contests like that on RP. Of course I wasn’t happy if I didn’t win, but that is to be expected. I haven’t competed in one since college, and I think they were all part of a specific design class. My view points and knowledge of our profession have greatly changed and expanded since college as well. I had contemplated competing in our states license plate competition a couple of years ago, but I decided against it for the same reasons I didn’t compete in the RP contest.
As far as the major trade pub competitions, I don’t have a big problem with them. It seems that people are very biased one way or the other on this issue, including me. The people I talk to, who don’t like these contest seem to work as Professors or they work at an agency that doesn’t enter their work in the first place. There are also good arguments against the slap-dash way that many of these are judged. There is always the old question. “How can you judge design when you only have 15 seconds to look at it?” Maybe Drew, our resident CA judge, can give us his insight into these competitions and judging.
Would you draw a line between the trade pub competitions and the trade organization contests (i.e. AIGA & ADC)? Just curious. You didn’t mention them in your question. There are so many different issues when it comes to these contest, I don’t know where to begin. Are there to many? How should they be judged? Why do we need them? How would we see new work if we didn’t have them? Are local contests beneficial? The list goes on.
If we really want to discuss our industry competitions I am open to that. We could also start another thread just for this purpose, or maybe it is more interesting in the midst of logo and poster contest discussion. Either way.
February 4th, 2005 at 10:14 pm
Clint, your comments really illuminate a clear heart for this debate / discussion and return as well to similar discussions of what “design” really applies to in terms of our services / work. It is easy to suggest the notion of simply slapping a logo / poster / brochure onto a problem and calling it fixed, but it assuredly leaves out so much of the wonderful meat and thought that goes into a fully realized design solution.
It also pointedly exposes why so many designs really dissolve once they’re examined or utilized for any period of time – if they were a visual band-aid to begin with, they merely covered the real problem and will ultimately lose their adhesion. It produces the glut of shiny new logos that everyone simply ignores and printed materials that everyone simply discards. Real design therapy allows the client and designer to both examine the issues at hand clearly and concisely and then develop the elements that facilitate actual needs and demands.
This might also be a great point in time to set up a bit more of a truce with RP and offer the sort of services you described to them – it’d be a good mobilization of the BE A community in the service of needs they might not have recognized (I’m very curious if they’re drifting in our direction in the same way we are in theirs). It’d also correlate well with some of the earlier on-line design research you were conducting…
On the other ball being tossed in this: Bennett, thanks for sharing your competition / contest experience as well. I didn’t necessarily suspect that you were a contest-victim, so to speak, but did wonder at the underlying motivations in this string…
If we’d like to jump train-tracks with the trade pub string, it’d probably be at least helpful in an organizational sense to move onto it, but it’s also fun to watch the organic way these conversations migrate into other territories.
My interest in that topic comes out of a bit of a personal attitude shift towards them – during my initial post-undergraduate employment my employer had a pretty lackluster attitude about the Print and HOW annuals / competitions especially and never entered any of the work we were doing (despite the fact that I felt it stood a really strong chance of inclusion in most instances). Part of it generally boiled down to the idea of paying them to include the work to begin with (or to not include it if that was the way the cards fell), and the other portion of it seemed to come from the sense that having work included in them rarely translated into any sort of measured increase in work for the business.
Post-grad studies and now looking at a career that will be primarily academic past this point, the annuals are an extremely viable career-aid. Most colleges and universities at the very least encourage or more often require their faculty to “publish” on a regular basis to maintain the accreditation of their staff and of the schools. That said, being a design / illustration professor means putting out client work that is “published” in the sense of it going into reproduction of one form or another, but also means getting some work fairly regularly into the annuals.
Although it’s a semi-requirement, I also find it motivated me to look at the annuals from the perspective of both potential employers and potential students – I thought it was extremely exciting and fun to see the work of my professors pop up in them, and I know it was reassuring to the university itself to find it there as well. They were strongly promoted as an area of dialogue between the profession and its observers as well, so I’ve very much begun treating them with far more sincerity and scrutiny than I did when I was simply a “working stiff”, so to speak.
I’m still of the opinion that entering them with the perspective of it gaining anyone “more work” is fairly misguided, but they are an excellent place to have your work “noticed” in one regard or another. As an educator, I also view them as a fairly excellent resource for general documentation – I’ve dug through old annuals on several occasions to cull out example work to show to my students and to spark discussion / dialogue. It’s fun to bring out work that might not have been looked at for some time and show it alongside the freshest produce – it also illustrates design trends in an incredibly immediate way.
The fact that individuals have to submit some payment along with their work also correlates to an aspect of the RP / similar competitions that we might not have addressed yet: the curious and intriguing relationship that people have with things that are offered free of charge.
I’m working with a particular effort at the moment that runs several annual technical workshops training the individuals that are essentially their clientele in using the equipment they provide. They routinely charge a fee for these workshops – cost added on top of what organizations / individuals have paid for the equipment already (although I’m certain in several instances that equipment owners pay a discounted rate for workshops).
I and an associate both asked them why they charged – was it really a revenue necessity, or was it a requirement for them to even be able to run the workshops?
Their answer was, “Not really – in most instances we don’t even technically make anything off the workshops themselves. We just found out pretty quickly that people didn’t treat the workshops as valuable unless we attached some opening dollar value to them. It ensured that people made a point of showing up for the workshops and really made sure they got everything out of them they could.”
That, in a nutshell, is one of the things that can be so egregious about certain competitions: either that they treat the materials gained with about as much value as many other “free” things, or that they’ve known all along the true value of what they’re collecting and simply cheated their way around making that payment.
The annuals / competitions of that nature still put a pretty decent value on the things that they collect and seek to demonstrate some quality / value threshold in those things they put on display, even if they often feel like they offer a very particular / singular vision of what quality & value entail.
February 5th, 2005 at 9:22 am
Wow. What an interesting group. A couple of weeks ago, at the height of the RP debate, I had half-drafted a private email to Bill at RP. My contribution to the RP contest was going to be a short list of questions that would help them think about what they needed and help them to articulate a decent creative brief. I’d even massaged the language of the brief (exchanging terms like “audience” or “demographics” with words like “listeners” etc.) so as not to sound too biz. But then the very vocal majority’s vitriol against any sort of design process there prompted me to throw in the towel. Maybe I shoulda sent it anyway…
March 3rd, 2005 at 2:54 pm
There is a very interesting discussion going on over at Speak Up about a similar competition. A logo contest for the UN.
June 22nd, 2005 at 1:21 pm
Almost five months after the contest was scheduled to end, Radio Paradise has finally revealed their new logo. It is better than the old logo, but I’m not a fan. How many cliches can you fit into one logo. I saw a lot of entries that were better than this. So far there is no fanfare or announcement, just the logo at the top of the page and a redesign of their site to match.