Gig Posters . . . Were We Invited to the Party?
Gig posters have been on my mind a lot lately, and I am really torn as to what I think of this whole scene. Through my week at Hatch Show Print (sorry, I am still working on the review), my stop at Hammerpress, the Sidekick podcast, upcoming Aesthetic Apparatus podcast and the traveling Graphic Noise show (which was great fun to see), I have some real issues I am working through. Let me share my hesitations and expectations on the whole gig poster scene.
1. Is there really a client? Most of the work (that I have seen) is done for the venue. So of course they are the client, but they seem to pay so little for these intensively produced posters, that I doubt that they really have much say in what goes on in the process. That leads me to my second question . . .
2. Does it devalue design? Designers seem so willing to design and print posters for bands that they like, that they almost do it for free. The designer does get to sell the posters at some shows to actually make some money in the process, but it seems to be a fairly unlucrative venture. What does this tell the band and concert promoter about the value of design? Does this make them think that design is subservient to the almighty Rock & Roll?
3. Are we tagging along on a band’s success? Are we the equivalent of the band’s design roadies or worse, their design groupies? I’m not trying to condemn here, because I am even worse. I am a wannabe design roadie.
4. Are gig posters more Art than Design? Many of the posters are self-initiated. Often times the only person that can get the meaning (if there is any) is the designer. The designer often does more lucrative projects just to support his/her poster work. Many times the poster seems to be more about self expression and style, rather than communication.
- How many people can actually make a living off of this work? We hear about Aesthetic Apparatus, Patent Pending, Art Chantry and The Heads of State making a living off of this kind of work, but is there room for a good deal more? Is this a hobby more than a profession?
6. Is this entire “movement” based on awards? How many local, national and publication awards have you seen go to gig posters? I’ll be the first to admit that there is a little bit of jealousy from certain cool posters winning awards and not some of my more day-to-day client work, but it is a serious question none-the-less. The cool medium (screen print), national name (the band’s), flashy graphics and a large format . . . All the ingredients are perfectly aligned to rake in the awards, and the judges seem to come through for the poster designers every time.
7. Do these posters actually get hung? Does a small run of 100-200 screen printed posters really get posted around the city to promote the show? Do they just get sold at the concert, handed out to the band, entered into design competitions, traded with other poster printers and given to concert sponsors?
Like any issue we face as designers, there are extremes and then there are gray areas. Hatch Show Print makes a nice profit while essentially doing gig posters, but I’m not sure where all their revenue comes from. I know they get a good deal of money from poster and merchandise sales inside the store, but I know it is not the bulk of the profit. I wonder if they are an anomaly since they are so much more than a modern poster shop.
I have presented some negative thoughts on the issue, but I really do want to hear some feedback. I honestly would like to do some letterpress posters for bands and concerts, but I just can’t help but to address some of these issues that I am thinking about. I am also not an expert on band posters and those that thrive off of it. I would love to hear from the experts.
So . . . Should we celebrate the Gig Poster scene as much as we do?
June 19th, 2006 at 9:58 pm
I’m not going to touch the devaluation issue, because it’s too raw and there’s really no resolution that ever comes from it. I’ll sum my feelings up in one word, “no.”
I’ll start out by saying that I think these posters are often extremely beautiful, if completely inscrutable, forms of design. How many conceptual album cover designs does one actually “get”? This seems to be in the same vein.
The award and design contest aspect is what bugs me a bit. Some shows seem to be dominated by them. Even CA has been showing quite a few in the past couple of years. It’s not that I think these posters aren’t award-worthy, but what are we judging them on? If the messages are completely indecipherable, is that a failure of communication, which, would suggest, that it shouldn’t be a winner in a design contest? If beauty is the only criteria, then why not include every last one? I’d like to know if there’s a quota on gig posters or other certain kinds of design or if the categories are flexible.
Since the clients are often small indie bands, and the runs are only in the range of 100-200, can these really be judged in comparison to work that actually has to help sell a major line of clothing for a fortune 500 company? I don’t mind seeing a few of these in the annuals, but I wonder what kind of work was left out.
June 19th, 2006 at 10:38 pm
The chance to create a show’s poster for a band you admire is, in my opinion, one of the best projects a graphic designer and/or artist can have the chance to do. The client isn’t representing a “major line of clothing for a fortune 500 company,” and should not be judged as such. In fact, it is an opportunity to do something graphically impactful without client restrictions. And the payoff? Many bands (excluding many of the nationally successful ones) cannot afford expensive posters and designers, and the very chance to create the poster – that fans from all over will forever associate with the show – is the reward. These posters become memorabilia, and if the band’s any good, collector’s items.
The visual message behind the posters might not be crystal clear, but the fans do pick up on them, as the designers are often fans themselves. To become even a small part of the bandmember’s (hopeful) journies to the rank of rockstar is also a pretty good feeling. I don’t doubt for a moment that the design is appreciated wholly, and money shouldn’t be the only gauge of it. The design “challenge” might not be the same as it is for a huge corporation, but the freedom in designing a show poster is priceless.
June 20th, 2006 at 6:13 am
My thoughts on the matter: Most people I know that are doing these posters don’t call themselves “designers.” Sure, some do, but very many of them are just people that have gotten into screen printing one way or another and are extremely talented artists. Does that make it not “real” design? Only if you’re a snob.
Does this work devalue design? Only if you are trapped in a mind-set that design is only about making dollars, and that through the virtue of your silly degree you now have a magical knowledge of exactly how to create THE perfect solution. The reality is that the audience for these types of posters are generally idealists (not always in practice, but at least in thought) that are jaded by corporate america, and feel oppressed by it. Therefore, a poster that is more art that “tight concept” is EXACTLY the direction that should be taken. But you can’t come up with that in your stuffy office and then try and replicate it. A true artist that isn’t thinking about staying on point to reach the audience and maximize ticket sales is what’s needed to make it work.
After all that, let me just say that these posters bore me to death. The problem designers should have with these posters is not that they don’t have a proper client, but that they all look so similar. The imagery is different, but the style is so similar. The screen print look is cool now, but it’s done so much it has gotten to the point of being expected, which means it’s not breaking any new ground.
word.
June 20th, 2006 at 7:49 am
Just to clarify the anomaly of Hatch Show Print.
Hatch is owned by the Country Music Hall of Fame. In the 1990′s Hatch was hemoraging, so the CMF bought them to save them, and Hatch began to make a profit almost instantly.
They complete between 600 and 650 jobs a year, ranging between 200-500 dollars for an average job. While being owned by the CMF, they are protected against most things, and will continue to do jobs well into the future.
June 20th, 2006 at 8:19 am
Just so you know, poster folks are listening:
http://www.gigposters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46376
June 20th, 2006 at 8:26 am
Some of them are art, some are advertising, some are outsider art, some are design, some are total crap. whatever. I frequent Gigposters.com and kind of feel like posters are the DIY way of getting your design “work” out. some people can make a living, but most are doing it for beer money and the love of bands and the process.
I have been doing my own posters for a little over a year, as a hobby, and for me it’s just a fun side-project where I can do whatever I want. I almost like the process of printing a poster more than the design phase or the finished product. Screenprinting is just fun. You should do it too!
whatever a gig poster is, I’d much rather see a screenprinted poster than another Xeroxed flier on goldenrod!
June 20th, 2006 at 8:35 am
Having conducted few interviews with people working in this industry, I feel like I’ve gained a better understanding of this offshoot industry than I previously held. First, there’s no money.
There’s no money because everyone, everyone, would jump all over themselves to do creative work for their favorite musician. So if you’re the White Stripes, and you had a few million people buy your last album, and a few hundred or even thousand of them want to create posters for you, there is very little risk in skipping the high bidders in favor of the low bidders. Someone, if enough of a rabid fan, would always do it cheaper. If you’re not educated on the value of design, as most people aren’t, then the different in the end product may be minimal to you (the artist).
The second is that most of those “meaningless” posters carry meaning to the devout fans of each musician. I say “most” on purpose, because many of these posters are nothing more than artistic masturbation. But just because I don’t understand what it means doesn’t mean a huge fan wouldn’t. Most poster designers I’ve spoken with do take their inspiration directly from the music.
That being said, I have a Dave Matthews Band poster by The Decoder Ring that I still have no idea what the hell it means, and I know DMB’s catalog like the back of my hand.
And I clearly agree with Televator’s point that the style is rapidly approaching death by saturation. As a side question: how creative is basing your work on appropriated artwork? Aren’t you just using the borrowed interest of a previous designer while adding very little real creativity of your own?
June 20th, 2006 at 8:41 am
I guess my opinion is that “Dada” didn’t happen because clients had a lot to say about what was happening. It was a movement and designers of the time wanted to do something different than what they got to do every day. People responded to that and they were remembered.
I do feel that most of the points you make are valid to a degree, but they also put a very high wall around what design is and what it’s purpose is. If design is a vehicle to influence culture than I would believe that these posters are the highest form of design available to us at the moment. If design is only about getting paid and operating within a certain base of rules then I guess it explains why so many of us are setting around our offices complaining with the “Golden-Handcuffs” fastend tight.
June 20th, 2006 at 8:45 am
Visit gigposters.com and you’ll find close to 60,000 different rock posters which represent only a fraction of those that exist historically and are currently being produced worldwide. There is no specific identifiable intent that can be applied to the realm of “gig poster” design.
June 20th, 2006 at 9:09 am
Good questions and good answers guys and gals.
I think that gigposters are a funny thing.
And like gunsho said, it’s pretty much impossible to boil them down to an easy answer.
* Yes there is a client. Is it like working with Bank of America? Probably not.
* Spec work is bad for design and bad for designers. But hopefully gigposter artists are at least getting into shows, selling the prints, or getting something in return for their effort. So to that end, I hope it’s NOT devaluing design in general.
* The band success issue. Yeah. That is a tough one. If I were in a band I’m not sure how I’d feel about a designer making a dollar off of “my name.” But I’d like to think that as an artistic entrepreneur I would be open to that kind of thing.
* Art vs. Design = beating a dead horse. How many advertisements are artistic? It really doesn’t matter. If they are appropriate for the group, then they work. It really matters a lot less what they look like, than if they work.
* People who are try hard enough can make a living at anything. Gigposters are no different.
* I’ve won awards for making posters. But I’d like to think that it was because they were well designed. Whatever the case, I suppose that’s an issue you would have to take up with judges who give poster designers awards, rather than the poster designers themselves. ???
* Yes the posters get hung. Usually. Obviously it varies from one designer/promoter to the next. Walk by any Homers or Recycled Sounds or CoffeeHouse. They’re EVERYWHERE.
June 20th, 2006 at 9:09 am
Hello nerds!
I’m the self appointed anti graphic design laison from gigposters.com who has come here to clue you big brains in on what gig posters are all about.
I am legion. My word is the voice of many and none at the same time.
If you have to think and talk about all this stuff to decide whether or not you want to do some gig posters then you have no business doing posters.
If you truly want to do gig posters then you wouldn’t have to ask any of these questions. You’d just take your thumb out of your ass and make them.
This has got to be one of the sissiest discussions I’ve read on the subject in quite some time. I’ve seen people do posters and then look for the approval of their peers after they’ve actually made something, but I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a diatribe, which appears to me, to almost be asking for permission from your peers as to whether or not it wold be okay for you to create some lame ass pretentious letterpress posters on some fancy pants French Paper.
If you want to do it then do it. Shit or get off the pot. Less time thinking and more time doing.
Talk is for the weak.
Love,
Richie Goodtimes
June 20th, 2006 at 9:09 am
I don’t think gigposters devalues design. When a design firm does pro-bono work for a non profit agency nobody complains about it devaluing design. Whats taken into account in most situations is the clients budget. If you were doing a poster for U2 you would obviously be able to make more off that job then you would with an indie upstart. The point that it does begin to devalue design in my opinion is when promoters and labels find a site like gigposters and contact a bunch of designers to do some spec work on a tour poster then they just pic the best one. But thats up to us as graphic designers and artists to educate them. As for the art or design debate i think it really depends on what background your from. The music that is represented on these posters is artistic, beautiful, trendy, loud, subjective, simple, etc. it has an audience to reach and connect with. The people that listen to the music are the people designing the posters which makes it more genuine. Most posters pull from experiences from live shows or lyrics, things that if you loved the band’s music you would understand. this is where i think gigposters lose people because if they don’t know the music they complain about not understanding the poster art. So in many ways poster art is design because it has an exact audience to interact with, and hopefully draw in new people that find the poster art interesting. I think it’s great that design and art blurr on this issue for people. even in school i’ve always hated how the two were divided and designers were thrown into this stereotype of black turtle necks and stuffy award shows. And “artists” were the blessed few that ascended to great heights. The people that inspire me are the ones doing this work because they love music and the people that it involves. great work comes from the people that have good design sensibilities and artistic vision. They’re not looking at the last CA annual and trying to design like it. The posters are inspired by music. music is an industry that plays heavily off trends and expression, so I think the posters will always have these qualities, and yes, you’ll see people pick up on that and you’ll see posters with similar qualities, when we set up the show me and mike weihs were talking about how there was probably a 1 in 5 chance that we would be picking up a poster with a bird on it. Hell, even our graphic noise poster had a bird on it. Thats why I think you see such a dominance in the annuals of these posters. there loud and clever and just because it doesn’t communicate to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t hit it’s intended audience. I hope i’m not making this sound lofty, or that poster design is better than people’s day to day work. Award contests at least in my experiences have always kind of divided people into a pecking order, and more than not, it seems based on style, rather than good communication. But there is a lot of good design out there and i’ve never needed a piece of paper hanging on my wall in a cheap plastic frame to tell me that. As for question 7, all of the above, our posters get hung, given out, signed, and traded all over town. If you love music and expressive design/art?? embrace it with both arms, Sidekick does.
June 20th, 2006 at 9:20 am
categories are fascistic.
June 20th, 2006 at 9:25 am
Come on over and join our forums. We WELCOME you…. and this discussion.
but wear a cup.
and step over the dead horses.
June 20th, 2006 at 9:27 am
No. You are not invited to the party.
No fat chicks.
June 20th, 2006 at 9:28 am
im kelly clarkson
June 20th, 2006 at 9:32 am
I think the high school kids are here. I hope they make fun of us for having jobs and going to college. Because you know, that’s like, so lame.
June 20th, 2006 at 9:35 am
I’m self employed. I work in my pajamas all day…and I make a ridiculous amount of money.
Have fun in the cubicle college boy.
Who’s the lame one now?
June 20th, 2006 at 9:39 am
ok…
this discussion has obviously run its course.
As I said before (either here or at gigposters.com) these are legitimate questions. And they’ve been asked even from within the poster community numerous times. So there’s no reason not to ask them.
But the answeres are simple ones.
And therefore the discussion devolves into namecalling and internet dumbness.
…carry on.
June 20th, 2006 at 9:42 am
Denny…we speak your name.
June 20th, 2006 at 9:44 am
This was the only way it could ever end, Denny. You know that.
And it’s not even nearly over. It can get much worse and thusly…funnier!
June 20th, 2006 at 9:45 am
My thoughts:
Of course there is a client. Anyone who designs a gig poster obviously has the band/musicians in mind and knows that they probably won’t be able to sell anything if the band doesn’t approve. This is just as much a client as any. Each poster a designer creates is also risking their name/business/reputation as a good gig poster designer. In some terms we are our own client. Just because gig posters often start as a blank “canvas‚Äù (few restrictions from the band) this does not mean it is any easier to design or create than a something for a large corporate client
Any designer who thinks that gig posters devalue design is not thinking about the true meaning of design. The gig poster is the purest form of design and creative expression. It is what we are all aiming for: to be able to communicate for an audience in a creative way. Who says design has to = money. Whatever happened to the artist in us?
Art vs design. Why does this matter? Art = Design Design = Art If we as designers don’t believe in this, than what are we designing for? A piece of work that is heavily directed by the client, never to push the limits or test the audience. Something that might make a few bucks, but will never be appreciated nor rejected by the public. How boring have we become? No thanks.
If you truly enjoy something so much, you will find a way to make a living off it.
What ever happened to the student in us that truly wants to be experimental? Most of the poster artists I know including myself, this is our labor of love, our hobby, what we do and practice in all of our spare time. In turn this “side work‚Äù reflects heavily on how I design during the day. It has forced me to test my limits and not become stale.
I hate how the design community is always up in arms about awards. An award means nothing to me, but a way to share my work with others and try to inspire them and be inspired by them. If you are truly jealous by this, then design one for yourself and see how challenging it is to create a well-designed gig poster.
Anyone can have the chance to design a gig poster. Weather it is designed well, that is up for debate. I think this is the reason I enjoy it so much. The great community of people I have met that challenge me, the work that I have been inspired by, and the aspect of getting dirty with ink and doing something hands on, it is all worth it.
Try it for yourself and then comment here.
June 20th, 2006 at 9:47 am
I have love for you ALLLL.
June 20th, 2006 at 9:47 am
1. Yes, of course there is a client if you are doing poster work legitimately. The client is the band, the management, and the venue.
Sometimes we work closely with one of them, sometimes not. But it always has to be appropriate for who you’re working for. That is the basic responsibility of a graphic designer.
2. Maybe. This is a tough one because we get so much more from our poster work than money. But yeah, of course, if everyone is doing something for free why would anyone pay for it?
3. For us we do posters for bands we enjoy. And we have started doing less and less posters for bands that don’t need the promotion.
4. Gigposters are advertisements. If they are more about self expression and/or style and don’t communicate anything about the band or concert…well then they are failed advertisements. Simple.
5. Please don’t assume we make a living off of making gigposters. We do not.
However, doing this poster work has worked as a great form of self promotion, getting us projects that pay the bills.
6. Awards are fairly meaningless. That’s not to say they cannot be useful in getting new clients. But in the end it’s just the opinion of a few folks. We’re always grateful to get work accepted and appreciate it as it’s a great form of advertising for us.
7. The poster are intended to be hung. Once they are handed over to the venue, or sent to the band…it is out of our control. The concert poster has also seem to have taken on a new role as an almost expected form of merchandise for bands as well.
In regards to some other comments…
What is the “screen printed look?”
Not sure I understand that. It’s just ink on paper.
I do feel that the “poster scene” or whatever is super saturated right now.
I’m sure as time goes on the people who really love doing will continue on doing strong work and a large majority of the rest will fall away.
And personally…I don’t think about this stuff much. I just do what I do and try to keep moving forward. So, there’s that.
June 20th, 2006 at 9:51 am
Karen and Goodtimes both read my mind.
I feel violated.
June 20th, 2006 at 9:53 am
This discussion was sent to me by its author…..just want to chime in on a few points:
We don’t make a living on doing posters alone. We do lots of other types of work for a diverse list of clients. We do make a profit on posters though, and depending on the client that profit varies. There is always a client, be it an agreeable, supportive venue or promoter, or as in the bulk of our work from the last 2 years, a band member/manager/record label. Working with promoters and venues is nice because they have a tremendous amount of trust in what we all do and then still make a point to hang the work, although on a much smaller scale than in past years.
I am actually increasingly suprised by our clients and how design savvy they can be. One of our poster clients who I won’t name works very closely with art directors and even intergrates their own ideas and work when applicable. Another poster client keeps an eye on design and illustration annuals for new talent. I know this isn’t the norm, but I wanted to offer it as food for thought.
June 20th, 2006 at 9:56 am
in the words of ray davies:
here come the people in grey
to take me away
June 20th, 2006 at 10:25 am
As a professional graphic designer, let me just add this one bit of info I recently related to some students at a portfolio review.
If you want a job as a professional graphic designer, do not show me a porfolio full of posters you designed for a band. Any designer worth his salt can do a “cool” band poster. I expect that you can. It is a given. End of conversation.
I want to know if you can do real client work. Can you do a cool bank poster? Can you do a cutting-edge logo for a delivery company? Can you get me excited about engines? Blow me away with your annual report for the dog food company.
Great post.
June 20th, 2006 at 10:30 am
You’re wrong, Dave.
Most designers cannot do a cool band poster.
Gigposters.com is undeniable proof of that.
June 20th, 2006 at 10:31 am
“If you want a job as a professional graphic designer, do not show me a porfolio full of posters you designed for a band”
This is true. Whenever we see student portfolios full of posters we tell them the same thing.
June 20th, 2006 at 10:32 am
So a band, venue or promoter is isn’t a “real client”? Where do you draw the line?
June 20th, 2006 at 10:33 am
I will add that diversity is good.
June 20th, 2006 at 10:33 am
Dave Selden that is the biggest bunch of shit i’ve ever read.
I’ve been offered jobs strictly on my gigposters.
thanks!
June 20th, 2006 at 10:38 am
It’s certainly not a given. Ever. Nothing is a given.
June 20th, 2006 at 10:43 am
We had a project in school, this is when we were young, young students and hungry to make something all cool as hell. And we get our hands on this great project and the professor says “Now you have to make it about an airline.” And of course we all yelled that you can’t make anything cool for an airline. And then he told us:
“Making something look cool for a band is easy, because bands are cool. If you can make something for a boring company look as exciting as something for a band, then you’ve got it. Just because you don’t see cool design for banks (for example) doesn’t mean it can’t be done, it only means it hasn’t.”
June 20th, 2006 at 10:54 am
Hey. I’m with Dave on the point that we don’t want to see portfolios filled with band posters. It is an entirely different kind of challenge when you are tasked with designing something for about evaporator coils or engines, than when you get to design something for a band.
Over the past 15 years, I have designed more band posters than I could possibly count. I can clearly see the influence that DIY or band poster/record cover art has had over the larger design community. Take a look at the dodge charge microsite for example. The feedom you are given when working on these pieces is a breeding ground of experimentation and a place to test new ideas or techniques. Bands are real clients and communicating their sound, style, and energy can be a real challenge. Its also a real opportunity to let loose. The important thing to remember is that its more likely that your client will make evaporator coils, so you have to be able to bring that energy and excitement to those clients as well.
Just my two cents.
June 20th, 2006 at 11:07 am
I guess I see it the opposite way…
it should be obvious that someone can design for a bank, airline, or other default “boring” client. (Seriously, how often do you get to make something for those clients that really screams?)
But what do they do when they really cut loose and experiment?
June 20th, 2006 at 11:16 am
There’s really no difference between rock posters and any other kind of work, in that you have a client who needs to get their message to customers. Skulls and flames may not be appropriate for say… an accounting firm. I have corporate clients and freelance clients. It doesn’t take any kind of degree or pretension to discern the difference in their needs. I have never had a client look at my work and be turned off by the fact that I can work in both worlds. Believing that your work is somehow more valid because you have a degree, or your clients pay more is silly. If it helps you feel better about your work day, congratulations, but it isn’t necessarily true.
June 20th, 2006 at 11:17 am
if i EVER get excited about a dog food annual, somebody shoot me in the face.
June 20th, 2006 at 11:17 am
Design is only as good as the concept behind it. There are plenty of posters out there that “look cool” but don’t have any meaning behind them. But there are a hell of a lot more that are great design with solid ideas behind them.
The same goes with any other form of graphic design. Like Dave Selden said, show me you can work with a client, a challenge, a deadline and then what you can do. I’m sure that you’ll find the best gigposter designers deal with these issues. The rest are just doing what they think “looks cool”.
June 20th, 2006 at 11:21 am
One mark of a good designer is the ability to bring the client along and makes them see the benefits of cutting loose or experimenting. You have to prove it to them, and if you can’t, they won’t want you to do it.
If you can, though, and your client sees the benefits of the work you’re doing (more benefits than “looking cool,” by the way. “Looking cool” only looks cool to people who think the same stuff looks cool as you do), they’ll be in. I’ve seen it done, I’ve even done it a little myself. It’s not easy.
How much to you have to prove to a rock star about experimenting or going off on a creative tangent? My guess is none, or at least very little.
June 20th, 2006 at 11:27 am
“How much to you have to prove to a rock star about experimenting or going off on a creative tangent? My guess is none, or at least very little.”
It seems simple doesn’t it? Well, often times it’s not. Larger bands on major labels have a lot of people working for them. Getting a poster design approved by the band’s management AND record label, who’s job it is to keep the band’s best interests in mind, is not always an easy task. Just like any other business, certain bands have a “look” that they are comfortable with and trying to break them out of that is not easy.
June 20th, 2006 at 11:32 am
Very good point, Mike. Hope I didn’t offend. By the way, we’re looking at launching our interview you guys this week.
June 20th, 2006 at 11:33 am
Michael, Jason, Allen, Denny, Karen, Curt . . . Thanks everyone for your comments. Some very great points made. I appreciate your honesty. I didn’t want this to come off as me being and expert, I just wanted to learn a little more about how this whole industry works. I am fascinated by these beautiful posters, I just wanted to approach it from an objective view point (if that is possible).
Just to comment on a couple thoughts on the gigposter.com forum thread. I do actually do some of my own printing already. I’m not actually looking for approval from my peers to do gig posters. And I always find it fascinating that when certain people read an opinion they don’t like, they just disregard it by saying . . . “Some people think too much”. I’ve also heard comments that these points have been beaten to death already. Well, for those of us that don’t visit gigposters.com daily, this maybe our first discussion about the subject. As I’ve stated, I’m fairly new to the gig poster world, so my ears are open.
A big thank you to those that migrated over from gigposters.com and left some intelligent responses.
One thing I do like about the gig poster scene is that it really is a different beast. It seems to be the perfect marriage of design and art. I don’t want to get into a design vs. art discussion, because that will never be resolved. The screen printed poster genre, is fascinating in that it does seem to defy categorization. It is a blank canvas with a great client.
“If design is a vehicle to influence culture than I would believe that these posters are the highest form of design available to us at the moment.”
Allen, I do see your point. Design does not have to be tied to budgets . . . but I also don’t see elevating gig posters to the level of the “highest form of design” as healthy.
There’s really no difference between rock posters and any other kind of work
Like it or not, there is a difference in many of these projects. This is probably not a bad thing, but they are different. It is a different model, and I am just trying to wrap my mind around it. The compensation to most gig posters is not the money . . . but a myriad of other varied things. The fact that some of these get sold at the concert also makes them different. In this case you are making a product instead of an advertising or branding piece (which is the traditional model for a show poster).
June 20th, 2006 at 11:40 am
ummm..well…all the commercial gigs I ever got..maybe about 4 million dollars worth in total,..where the direct result of my crappy band posters.
in my case posters led directly to lots and lots of commercial gigs for clients trying to appeal to the youth market.
June 20th, 2006 at 11:46 am
I left you the most useful comment out of the bunch but you ignored it.
I guess I’ll have to speek geek so you get it.
As Yoda once said, ‘There is no try.’
June 20th, 2006 at 11:49 am
“we’re looking at launching our interview you guys this week.”
OH GREAT. Now people will really know what boneheads we are.
June 20th, 2006 at 11:49 am
The only thing that bothers me about the whole gig poster thing is when I see so much of it in awards shows. Not that there aren’t some amazing designs in the genre, but I’m just not sure how you judge it’s value as graphic communication. Do you judge a band poster on beauty alone or can you really figure out what it’s trying to communicate? The same can be said for CD packaging, which often seems arbitrary and free of a message.
Of course, I say all this as someone who is wildly jealous of some of the band work that is being done…
June 20th, 2006 at 11:54 am
What I was getting at was that the purpose of a rock poster is the same as that of a magazine ad campaign, for example. What’s more interesting to me about the posters is that their “useful” life as an ad is very short, after which they become a product. After ten years in TV and print advertising, I can say that (in my experience) not many other ads make that transformation. Until the night of the show, the poster is just an ad… with the same purpose as any other printed marketing material.
June 20th, 2006 at 11:57 am
“The only thing that bothers me about the whole gig poster thing is when I see so much of it in awards shows”
That’s like saying “Why are there so many brochures in award shows?” Or “What is this brochure about cell phones really trying to communicate?”
There’s no reason to separate concert poster work from any other work done. A poster’s value as graphic communication is no different than the other crap you see in design annuals.
June 20th, 2006 at 12:07 pm
“If you want a job as a professional graphic designer, do not show me a porfolio full of posters you designed for a band‚Äù
Kinb of B.S. If you’re a student, then I see your point but the last 2 agency jobs I’ve had I’ve been hired becasue of my gigposters. The “regular” design work was acknowledged, but the gigposters sealed the deal. It wasn’t until I started doing gigposters that I started getting the kind of freelance design work I wanted.
I now have the best job I’ve ever had in my life. Largely in part because I make gigposters.
June 20th, 2006 at 12:11 pm
I completely hate seeing gig posters in design annuals and getting awards as well, but not exactly for the same reason.
You can’t judge a gig poster purely at face value. You’ve gotta know the music and the scene.
I don’t think that the judges of these contests really know what they’re looking at and only pick pretty pictures.
Gig posters can and should be the most basic form of communication. Gut level…none of this concept crap. You look at it and know what is going on. Rock show, this band at this place on this day.
I make rock posters. I don’t make them for you. I don’t make them to get jobs. I don’t give a shit about yours or anyone elses approval of them as pieces of graphic design. I hate subtelty. I make shit that screams.
Rock and roll is stupid. It’s simple and fun. It’s not my job to educate the audience as to what good design is based on what some college professor or annual report makes deems good.
I think a good deal of you, especially the ones that feel the need to intellectualize graphic design, need to step back away from yourselves and realize that the general public does not give a shit about graphic design or concepts or typefaces or pantone colors or whatever. All they know is when something looks good, when something is confusing or when something looks like shit.
Most of the time looking cool is way more important than being clever. People like cool. They get that. Clever is hit or miss.
June 20th, 2006 at 12:13 pm
Michael,
At least I can look at a cell phone brochure and it can communicate the value of the phone and/or service to me. A band poster usually tells me nothing about the band or what type of music I might hear if I go to their concert. If I don’t know the band’s music, how can it be judged whether it’s a successful communication tool or not?
June 20th, 2006 at 12:13 pm
Also… you don’t have to lie down and design things for people who make evaporator coils if you don’t want to.
If you want to work with “cool” “fun” clients, you need to be able to show them that you have the ability to do so.
You think a skateboarding company or a motorcycle company cares if you can design a poster for a bank?
June 20th, 2006 at 12:13 pm
Mister Goodtimes is right.
June 20th, 2006 at 12:17 pm
“RichieGoodtimes said:
You’re wrong, Dave.
Most designers cannot do a cool band poster.
Gigposters.com is undeniable proof of that.”
No kidding. Check out this page- if the guy doesn’t rehash skulls on his posters, he’ll just use pictures of himself.
http://www.gigposters.com/designers.php?designer=33713
June 20th, 2006 at 12:17 pm
“A band poster usually tells me nothing about the band or what type of music I might hear if I go to their concert.”
What you’re describing here is an unsuccessful poster.
June 20th, 2006 at 12:19 pm
Wow. Sounds like some people have spent a lot of time and energy practicing responses to comments that are critical of their work. I hear the bells of subjectivity clanging, “People can like whatever they want. If somebody calls elephant shit art, it’s art.” However, calling a discussion of a type of work, in this case regarding its economics and its relationship to graphic design, dirty names is not a way to disprove the discussion’s relevance. Someone might listen to, “Actually, I’ve had good luck finding jobs by using my gig posters as examples.” No one intelligent will listen to, “Fuck you! I get all kinds of work because of my posters!” Could we get back to discussing the topic? If you don’t like the topic, don’t read it.
June 20th, 2006 at 12:23 pm
P.S. Richie Goodtimes is taking for granted what many people do to pay the bills. He is disregarding how the culture he consumes gets introduced to society.
June 20th, 2006 at 12:24 pm
This discussion reminds me of an article I read awhile back.
“…the practice of design necessarily involves solving problems. Further, these problems present constraints; whether these originate in the client’s budget, the target audience’s availability, or in the technical limitations of the medium is immaterial.
The important part of this idea is that the task of the designer is to present the client with a solution within an ambit circumscribed by factors beyond his or her control, factors that limit the ability to unrestrainedly impose personal taste. When a designer-a Paul Rand, a Saul Bass, a Neville Brody-can consistently succeed at this and still develop a recognizable personal style, well, that (by my lights, anyway) is where all the artistry resides.”
It’s a great read(http://www.alistapart.com/articles/bathingape/).
And for those of you who say designers couldn’t create posters of this calibur, I suggest to you that there are probably just as many poster artists that couldn’t create memorable work within the constraints put upon them by many clients. Don’t short-change the value of developing creative solutions within pre-ordained constraints. To overcome those challenges are far more rewarding than doing whatever you want, whenever you want. Because sometimes (and as designers, we probably don’t want to admit this) even better work can come from useful client feedback.
To Denny, Karen, Michael, Allen, Curtis and Jason, I appreciate the comments. Being able to defend your take on this subject is important. It gives credibility to this discussion. And I love the great work. Keep it up.
June 20th, 2006 at 12:28 pm
Cool is relative to the individual. What is cool to you may not be cool to your audience, unless you only do work for musicians you like, in which case you’ve got a good shot at matching up. But if that is all a designer/artist can do, then they aren’t very good at anything. Learning to communicate with people who are not like you trumps “cool” and “clever” combined.
June 20th, 2006 at 12:28 pm
Awesome…I didn’t even click on that link but I know it goes to me. I don’t have to look at that to know that I’ve only got ONE poster on there with a skull on it, so you’re only half right. I do think it’s hysterical to put myself on posters though and so did the bands I did them for.
Also…I take offense to being called a graphic designer, so watch your tongue.
Whats your work look like, dude? I don’t need to actually see it. Just tell me which tan mafia design group it most resembles.
June 20th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
I had been staying out of this even though Bennett tried to goad me in by using a Graphic Noise pic with three of my posters in it and e-mailing me earlier.
This is from a conversation with Dan at AA not long ago on this very subject of posters in the annuals. This is such an old argument:
The “too many posters” in design annuals arguments kill me. When I started out all anyone complained about was that the annuals were full of logos for “fake” companies or ones for so and so’s brother’s plumbing company that they never use. Same old jealous chorus. Eye catching design is what it is at face value. If Kit Heinrichs made gigposters they would be great. You guys (AA) have shown that your talent can boil down to a logomark. If anyone could design posters and be in the annuals trust me that the folks complaining would do it. Our local show judging was loaded with more posters than ever this year but the same number were accepted as before by the same designers as before.
Art Chantry has a great quote on the gigposter scene in my article in the issue of HOW hitting the stands now (or very soon depending on where you live.) I won’t throw him in here without permission but pick it up.
I think the client thing has been covered but also remember that some of this work is doen as commerative memorabilia. Modern Dog’s 50 Cent poster with “sold out” printed on it comes to mind. So if you criticize this think about it the same way you would go after a tour t-shirt. I haven’t figured out why everyone gets their fangs out for a Dave Matthews poster but not a Dave Matthews t-shirt of hat or cd package…
And before anyone attacks I am indeed a “partial” observer as a practicing poster designer as well as the author of New Masters of Poster Design. I also solve visual probelms for everyone from ESPN to Reading Is Fundamental and have yet to see the difference between my gigposter work and these jobs on the most basic levels. Our portfolio “dresses” for the jobs we want to work on and I would say the same for kids coming out of school.
June 20th, 2006 at 1:12 pm
John, In my defense, I only knew that one of those posters was yours.
June 20th, 2006 at 1:15 pm
Hey B – I wish I could say mine was the good one but that is the magical Ron Liberti. Now the rest of you should figure out which one that is.
June 20th, 2006 at 1:26 pm
“but I also don’t see elevating gig posters to the level of the “highest form of design‚Äù as healthy.-
Why not?
June 20th, 2006 at 1:29 pm
I’ve been making rock posters a long time, so I’ll bite. I’m sure there’s an argument to be made for each answer. Just speaking for myself as a full-time working rock poster artist….
1. Is there really a client? Most of the work (that I have seen) is done for the venue. So of course they are the client, but they seem to pay so little for these intensively produced posters, that I doubt that they really have much say in what goes on in the process. That leads me to my second question …
House of Blues is my main client here in Orlando. Sometimes I work though the band and/or their management. In any case, I peresonally make sure every band I do work for gets their percentage of the posters and most of the time I deliver them in-person. Sometimes the band will give me input. Most of the time there’s a tight deadline and the poster needs to be done quick with little or no input from the band or venue.
2. Does it devalue design? Designers seem so willing to design and print posters for bands that they like, that they almost do it for free. The designer does get to sell the posters at some shows to actually make some money in the process, but it seems to be a fairly unlucrative venture. What does this tell the band and concert promoter about the value of design? Does this make them think that design is subservient to the almighty Rock & Roll?
You could also ask that question of most any commercial art. I’ve done posters for bands that are not always my cup of coffee and enjoyed the process. It’s challenging to me. In my experience I’ve never had a negative reaction from a band. They’re usually happy someone created something special for their show, provided they get the posters and know about it in advance.
3. Are we tagging along on a band’s success? Are we the equivalent of the band’s design roadies or worse, their design groupies? I’m not trying to condemn here, because I am even worse. I am a wannabe design roadie.
Yup. Probably. But in the best case, everybody wins. It does benefit all involved. The bands, the venues and the artists.
4. Are gig posters more Art than Design? Many of the posters are self-initiated. Often times the only person that can get the meaning (if there is any) is the designer. The designer often does more lucrative projects just to support his/her poster work. Many times the poster seems to be more about self expression and style, rather than communication.
Speaking for myself, I put all of my energy into creating art that represents the artist and their music or attitude as opposed to my ego. Do I always nail it? Probably not. They all can’t be winners.
5. How many people can actually make a living off of this work? We hear about Aesthetic Apparatus, Patent Pending, Art Chantry and The Heads of State making a living off of this kind of work, but is there room for a good deal more? Is this a hobby more than a profession?
I make my living at it and I have to really hustle to do that. But I really love doing it. I did it for years and years without making a single penny out of it. It’s only been in the last five years that I was able to make it a full-time gig.
6. Is this entire “movement‚Äù based on awards? How many local, national and publication awards have you seen go to gig posters? I’ll be the first to admit that there is a little bit of jealousy from certain cool posters winning awards and not some of my more day-to-day client work, but it is a serious question none-the-less. The cool medium (screen print), national name (the band’s), flashy graphics and a large format ‚Ķ All the ingredients are perfectly aligned to rake in the awards, and the judges seem to come through for the poster designers every time.
I’ve received no awards for my work other than the band’s compliments, their fans buying my posters or getting more work from a band because they liked my work. That’s good enough for me.
7. Do these posters actually get hung? Does a small run of 100-200 screen printed posters really get posted around the city to promote the show? Do they just get sold at the concert, handed out to the band, entered into design competitions, traded with other poster printers and given to concert sponsors?
Mine do. In most cases I put ‘em up myself.
June 20th, 2006 at 1:34 pm
“I make rock posters. I don’t make them for you. I don’t make them to get jobs. I don’t give a shit about yours or anyone elses approval of them as pieces of graphic design. I hate subtelty. I make shit that screams.”
You make art. Art is great. It’s not necessarily design.
Yes, the art vs. design debate is a whole other can of works, but, for me, that is my only grip with seeing the gig posters in design annuals. In fact, that’s my main gripe with most design annuals…all you get is a 4″ photo that, at most, gives you a rough idea of the aesthetic portion of the design. Rarely does a design annual/competition actually communicate the qualities of the pieces in terms of overall design. It’s typically purely an aesthetic presentation.
June 20th, 2006 at 1:35 pm
An important difference between a rock poster, good or bad, and a brilliantly executed cell phone ad is that if the band sucks, you’re out a few bucks and a couple hours of your life… If you buy a crappy phone because somebody made a slick looking ad, you’re in for a lot bigger headache.40 years down the road, Rick Griffin’s Fillmore posters still excite people… How long until your cell phone ad is utterly forgotten?
June 20th, 2006 at 1:46 pm
I make advertisements and merchandise. Those things are not fine art. They are art in the same sense that graphic design is art, but nothing more.
June 20th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
Why not?
Allen, Because design, wether it is an ad for a private jet broker or a cool band poster should communicate appropriately and effectively. Elevating one over the other doesn’t do any good.
If we elevate rock posters to the pinnacle of design, where does that leave ballot design, a world campaign to eliminate aids, or a well designed map?
Since gig posters are the most pure, should we only enter those in design competitions and disregard the work of the rest of the design world?
How long until your cell phone ad is utterly forgotten?
macthulhu, The VW Think Small campaign is remembered and celebrated decades later. And two hours waisted on a horrible concert is still time waisted. Wether you want to admit it or not, there are consequences to every sort of design.
June 20th, 2006 at 2:25 pm
when you’re judging an awards show or an annual, you’re usually judging in categories. so you’re judging gigposters against other posters, not against brochures. so it’s kinda silly to compare the two. and when you’re judging any awards show or annual you’re judging everying on it’s surface. there are no creative briefs or reports on how the work affected sales that come with the pieces.
June 20th, 2006 at 2:31 pm
I get work directly from the bands. Either I approach them, or they approach me.
And yes, I think I could do a kick as Bank poster.
June 20th, 2006 at 2:31 pm
there’s lots of everyday design that doesn’t impact how people think, or change the way we view people or issues. I think that elevating certain design over other things can happen and should. The “amphetaZINE” info booklets that modern dog put out was something that changed and helped the culture of san francisco, now i think you can put that over the next mountain dew ad campaign any day of the week. Who’s to say what is the most pure form of design,i don’t know what it is, but you can’t deny the rock poster culture and the passionate people that are involved with what there producing. And right now that is what people are taking notice of. I think it’s great.
June 20th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
I work in both worlds, so I have an appreciation for both… For the typical consumer with no connection to either “industry”, they’re far less likely to appreciate the genius of those VW ads.
June 20th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
Ah-hem…that’s “kick ass” Bank poster.
June 20th, 2006 at 2:36 pm
“Since gig posters are the most pure, should we only enter those in design competitions and disregard the work of the rest of the design world?”
Not at all, and I didn’t try to imply that. But we also shouldn’t devalue posters as design because the way they come to fruition doesn’t play by our rules. It’s hard for design as a medium of communication to grow and change when you put all these expectations on it.
I just don’t believe that you can run a piece of design through a list of checks and balances before you can call it design. I think that is the most unhealthy of all.
June 20th, 2006 at 2:52 pm
totally agree with you Allen, your my hero.
June 20th, 2006 at 2:57 pm
Whatever dork, you really need to marry that girl.
June 20th, 2006 at 3:02 pm
I think this thread says as much about internet communuication as it does posters, design, art, or anything else. It’s neat to read through all the firey opinions.
June 20th, 2006 at 3:09 pm
ben,
i tried to e-mail you more than once to put some of your posters in the local section of the graphic noise show, how come you never wrote me back?
Allen,
you need to not worry about if i’m single or married, besides getting married is kind of trendy right now.
June 20th, 2006 at 3:10 pm
I agree with a lot of what has been said here already, on both sides of the argument.
At the end of the day, whether its a quarterly sales report or a xeroxed punk flyer, its essetially words and images on paper.
They both share a common purpose, which is communicate to its targeted audience. After that, they become small pieces of history (often forgotten history), in one of two places. The garbage or someones home.
If you recieve an effective, well-written and composed direct mail piece in the mail box, you will keep it and read it, absorbing what it is trying to say. Will you automatically buy what it is selling? No, but it served it’s purpose and that’s all you can ask.
If you see a poster for a band you like at a merch booth of aocncert or on the community board, you will buy it or take it down and hang it in your home. Maybe you’ve never heard of the band, so what, you will now at least know there is a band called Rock Out With Your Cock Out playing at your local watering hole on Friday night at 7 pm.
It, like the brochure you at least read before throwing away, both served their purposes in catching your eye and communicating a message.
There are obvious difference between the academic “design” and gigposter design, but in reality the differences arepretty tiny. Essentially ust a different medium and a different auidence.
I have a degree in Advertising design and work in a marketing/branding firm, but I also design gigposters. Does that make me a freak? I hope not.
If anything, paying attention to what happens in the gigposter community has been nothing short of educational for me. At times, I feel like soaking in all of the work that goes on every day in countries across the world, has been more educational then what I learned in my four years of college.
You can’t dismiss either genre’s educational benefits. Infact, they both could teach eacthother a few things and make ALL designers better at what they do.
I certainly don’t make a living from selling my silkscreened concert posters at shows and at the internet, but that is not why myself and thousands of others across the world do it. (At least I think so.)
Its a great way to get away from the sometimes ultra-boring world or corporate design and a great way to remind myself that I am an artistic, creative person, not just a monkey chained to a desk.
Like many others have previously said, its not as easy as it seems, and often, hunting down label reps, and getting a hold of rockstars to receive their blessing on your own work is not as glorious as it may seem.
They are clients and human beings, just like that guy with the bad hair piece and whiskey breath that is wondering why his 125 page chainsaw catalog is taking more than 5 hours to finish.
June 20th, 2006 at 3:15 pm
why is there so much either/or in this disucussion? that kind of thinking really bothers me.
as though gigposters must be either considered “pure” or at some imaginary pinacle of design principles…or not. that just sort of befuddles me.
is there any piece of design that is pure design? isn’t all visual communication or design subservient to the very thing, the chunk of consumerism it was created for?
design and art serve functions. but not everything needs a label or a specific and almost library-like placement of category.
my two centsesesesessss.
June 20th, 2006 at 3:44 pm
I’m not trying to be Alvin Lustig or Saul Bass when I do something (as awesome as they both were). If it touches someone, that’s gravy. I just wanna communicate, have fun, and make some cool shit in the process. I’m with Ms. Luna on this. Pure design, my ass. That’s straight up snobbery (and believe me, I’ve been guilty of such a crime).
June 20th, 2006 at 4:03 pm
Allen- I would have jumped at the chance! I didn’t get any email though? Is there an email mixup going on?
June 20th, 2006 at 4:12 pm
The world is a GREAT BIG PLACE.
June 20th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
True, Denny. It doesn’t stop us from pointing fingers at each other every once in a while, though
June 20th, 2006 at 5:57 pm
whoa. tonight i’m going to sit down and read this whole book. then comment.
June 20th, 2006 at 5:57 pm
whoa. tonight i’m going to sit down and read this whole book. then comment.
June 20th, 2006 at 5:59 pm
What’s up with the posters where you can’t discern the words due to extremely strange fonts? Isn’t that defeating the purpose of a gigposter (aka to advertise an event)?
June 20th, 2006 at 6:41 pm
Sorry but that’s an entire different topic. You’ll have to wait until that one comes up later.
haw haw.
Actually, here’s how that works…
If a band sounds boring, the poster should look boring.
If a band sounds like devil chicks and hot rods, the poster should probablly look like devil chicks and hot rods.
If a band sounds insane, the poster should look insane.
Make sense…?
June 20th, 2006 at 6:55 pm
Q:
What’s up with the posters where you can’t discern the words due to extremely strange fonts? Isn’t that defeating the purpose of a gigposter (aka to advertise an event)?
A:
Want to say the same about the whole psych poster movement in the 60′s and early 70′s with poster artists/designers like Griffin et all?
……………….
To read that Chantry makes a living off makes me giggle (and Chantry would love to comment on that statement)… of all the artists/designers to use I would never use Chantry. People with sales-skills like Jermaine Rogers, Frank Kozik, Emek end Justin Hampton are a much better example of artists who DO make money from gig posters.
The above basically tells me that the dude only knows about those designers/artists that are shown in the fancy incestious design mags.
June 20th, 2006 at 7:37 pm
The Art of the Gig seems to be on the tip of everyone’s tongues these days in addition to being hung in galleries, posted around cities, tacked up in designers’ homes and offices, and offered up on a myriad of web sites which currently seem to multiply about every two months. It’s so much part of the zeitgeist of this particular moment in the history of design that it’s difficult to see around for the time being, but seems like it’s already just at the cusp of its faddish upswing.
The amazing thing is just how widespread the bandwagon has publicly seemed to become – we’re really looking at about a 2-3 year build-up at very most on the bulk of the individuals, teams, and studios that are currently cranking out work. And as that bandwagon gains more and more speed, it’s hard to predict exactly what turn up ahead is going to either topple it or propel it any further.
It doesn’t take very long reading through the threads here and on GigPosters to realize that this thing has been around WAY longer than Print, CA, How or any of the other design publications have been paying such rapt attention to the scene. If anything, all of this attention has been a chance for those of us initially unfamiliar with so many of the solid artists producing this work to get a speedy catch-up course.
While I already MORE than sense that the newness of the eclectic, juxtapositional design stance of the vast majority of the gig poster work is overstaying its welcome, my sincere hope is that one of its underlying motivations stays strong and wakes up a design field that’s become a little too drowsy-eyed in front of their computer screens: the joy of the hand and a reawakened love for self-production, at least in as much as its sustainable within design projects.
It’s clear that any of the many printers who are doing this because they love it are not going to stop doing so even when this “goldrush” finally tapers off…
If I’d heard six or seven years ago that a large enough body of designers was going to quietly shut down their Macs and reach for silkscreens, woodblocks, and hand presses in order to produce a gallery of 400+ individual posters I doubt I could have believed it…”Who would think of trying to silkscreen when you could just fake it via the Adobe suite? Who has that kind of time for cryin’ out loud?!” – Cries that simply express how completely blinded by the technology designers became for a bit, and how great it is to see so many wake up and figure out how to REALLY use their hands and brains again.
And yet, here we are…
As an amateur fan-boy of the movement (and definitely a late-comer to the more longstanding party that reaches back into the 1960′s and even before), I’m of the mind that this is simply an expression of design revealing its fine art roots in full effect. I don’t know that I even generally think of the poster shows I’ve seen (and put on / mounted!) as focusing on the design profession so much as they focus on ways that artists / designers enjoy their art / craft.
This is one instance where I’m going to argue extremely against the notion that this is a devaluation of design or anything nearly on par with shady “design-our-logo” contests or similar ilk – this movement has clearly presented itself as a major labor of love on the part of its many practitioners. Much like Curtis Pachunka expressed in the recent podcast, SO many of the artists / designers / practitioners within this movement have talked about the grass-roots and self-taught tendency of picking this art up.
Asking questions about “making a living” off of doing this is essentially asking and accepting the same risk that’s involved in attempting to pay rent and live life off anything you choose to make: art, furniture, pies, clothing, etc.
- Will it work?
- Will you somehow find someone who happens to want to have that something as much as you wanted to produce it?
- Will you want to keep producing?
- Will you run out of any number of the resources needed to produce it?
It is stripping the unadulterated fun out of the equation, though, when it’s the ticket price of exchanging that love that we become the most focused on – like Karen pointed out above, where did that giddy buzz off the next flavor of experimentation go for so many of us? We often enough whine about how our jobs eat our free time and steal our creative desires, but rarely manage to really kick ourselves swiftly enough in the ass to simply get moving, make something, and see what happens.
What I find MOST ironic about the initiating post of this lengthy thread is that Bennett is one of my classmates that I’ve respected most for his unending / unswerving efforts to keep MAKING and keep LEARNING – he dove into letterpress printing entirely due to a couple great run-ins with old print-shop press men who started teaching him the craft. He’s steadily building up a more-than-respectable letterpress studio, as well as continuing to design regularly within the commercial sphere, and paint, and screenprint, and write about all of it…
It’s most surprising in the midst of it all, then, that your the one more or less asking permission to do what you’ve already been doing… Find the band of a friend, dude, and start jamming out the one sheets – you’ll find out quickly whether the force of their music, the force of your visuals, or the combination of both is going to get any of you anywhere…
June 21st, 2006 at 12:11 am
1) yes, we are hired by the band ,agent or promoter. the same people often hire us to do other work. we’ve had clients in bands who were also tv producers or business owners who after hiring us to do a gig poster hired us to paint the inside off a store , design a logo and credits for a tv show or create sets for a documentary .
2)we get paid most of the time and do freebies or cheapies for close friends who are just starting out or we’ll swap services. our clients tent to be very loyal and bands usually keep working with us as they get bigger. we never sell posters at gigs unless our own band is playing. personally as someone who has spent a long time in small touring bands i’d say selling posters at shows is kinda unwelcome as it cuts into a band’s merch sales (often the only real $$$ they make). we DO sell our work at art shows, open houses at our studio , craft sales , record stores and online.
i guess the amounts of money we make might seem un-lucrative to some but we’ve never really cared about that. as long as we can pay the rent & bills each month the freedom to not have a job and spend all our time doing what we enjoy trumps salary and security. i haven’t had a job in over 4 years and i don’t miss it one bit.
3)no. my partner and i are musicians first and foremost , that is how we started doing posters , to promote our own bands. we learned to screenprint so we could make tshirts for our own bands on the cheap. we spend 3-4 months outta the year living in a van , playing to crowds of often less than 100 people. most of the gigposters we do are for bands who are involved in the same music community as us OR even for our own band. we also promote shows in our city, bands sleep on our floor and couches weekly. most of the bands we work with are totally underground and unknown to most people. there isn’t much coattail to ride when it’s your best friends playing a warehouse show.
4) psht art , design WHO CARES! as long as it does the job the issue doesn’t exist. our work is commissioned and speaks to a particular group of people , just cause you don’t know the venacular doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
5) we make a living doing this. on top of that ALL our other design and illustration work we’ve gotten has directly came from doing gigposters. we are self taught , self employed and the work finds us.
6) who gives a fuck about awards? i’d rather spend the entry fee on records , books , RENT or music gear. on top of that we are from canada where design culture is VERY conservative. in quebec , there is no WAY that we could win awards locally , provincially or nationally doing the type of work that we do.our clients don’t care about awards they care about the work.
7) our shit gets hung everywhere. usually a minimum of 60 posters are wheatpasted around town. of course , once we give the posters to the client it’s out of our hands. lucky for us that most of our clients are friends or friend-of-friends. we don’t sell our posters at show or enter em in annuals and there ARE no corporate sponsors for the shows we make posters for. of course we DO swap em. not only with other poster makers but we get records, guitar strings , books, clothing, meals ALL KINDS of stuff for our posters. it’s a great bartering tool for scumbags like us who don’t make tons of ca$h.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:18 am
For the last time, I’m not asking for anyone’s permission. I do my own printing, Yes! I initiate some of my own projects, Yes! I completely respect the value of the hand crafted object and getting your fingers dirty. Yes! At the end of this, will I print my own gig posters? Most likely . . . Yes!
I just had some legitimate questions to ask, and apparently I stepped on a few toes. I’m fascinated by the whole movement and I really wanted to know how it works. If you are thinking about getting into anything, isn’t it good to get your tough questions out there? Maybe I was a bit harsh in my questions, but some of you need to chill and not get so defensive. I wasn’t aware that this kind of subject was so raw with certain people within the gig poster crowd. I appreciate the honesty of the people that saw the legitimacy of these questions. I kind of doubt that if some of the more defensive people hadn’t had some of the same thoughts, they wouldn’t be so defensive.
I also find it strange that there are several people that have taken this as an opportunity to rip on designers. I know I’m not wrong in saying that a good percentage of your fellow poster people are designers. They do other work outside of gig posters or some have day jobs as those “evil corporate designers”. I wasn’t trying to pit the poster designer against the corporate designer. In reality they are no different to me. Honest.
So a bit of a rehash/rethinking on some of my initial thoughts. Let me know if I have got it straight.
1. Is there really a client. Yes! Of course it depends on who you are. Some people do it completely bootleg. Some work for the venue and don’t need band approval, but some do get band approval. Some do work directly for the band. But, everyone is thinking about the band when they do the work.
2. Does it devalue design? Well, for the most part no . . . but . . . ok this one is hard to prove and just opens a can of worms. Design is completely elevated in that the poster is direct communication and design experimentation is at one of it’s highest forms. There is also the fact that so many people want to do this work, that is practically gets given away. I think that many would agree that doing the work for little compensation is not a major factor, as long as the venues and bands aren’t taking complete advantage of everyone. I hope that the designer does get compensated as much as possible, through sales at the concert and through a great amount of creative freedom.
3. Are we tagging along on a band’s success? Sometimes . . . but other times the less familiar bands are getting promotion from great design. I do understand the fact that good design will be evident regardless if it says U2 or some unknown band called Ordinary Trash. I also know that the posters that I mainly saw at Graphic Noise were fairly major names . . . were those just the ones I noticed? I also know I need to remind myself that just because it says Iron & Wine, doesn’t mean it is the coolest poster ever.
4. Are gig posters more Art than Design. I still hold that they are a good combination of the two. It seems that the opinion is across the board on this, so I can completely respect the varied opinions.
5. How many people can make a living off of this work? Not many, but nobody really cares. That is cool with me. I was just curious. No one is less important here, just good to know before I get my hopes up. This isn’t going to deter me either. I love letterpress and I will keep doing it. I don’t think I will disregard all printing jobs except gig posters, but I would like to get a healthy mix in there. With that said, the sentiment is that if you want to, you could make a living at this. You could be eating ramin and never running the air conditioner, but it is possible, if that is what you really, really want. It also sounds like the more famous designers, don’t make a living doing this. They do the poster work to be creative and hands on and in turn get great work that pays the bills. Doesn’t sound like a bad set up to me.
6. Is this entire “movement‚Äù based on awards? Apparently not, but that is how many graphic designers of the world see it. Some gig poster people hate design awards and others use them for their own promotion. Still others enter them to get feedback and no one said that they print posters just to win awards. One point made a couple times in this thread is that we can’t blame the designers for judges awarding the poster artists, and I do agree with that. A nice balance of all areas of design is the best solution. Now if we could just figure out how to stop time and give those judges enough time with each piece to judge them accordingly.
7. Do these posters actually get hung? I’m hearing that a least a portion get hung. Others say that this is out of their control, while others actually do the hanging themselves. And that there is nothing wrong with the poster as memorabilia at the concert. I own a few myself.
So again, sorry if I offended you and sorry if I tried to lump all the gig poster designers in a single bunch. There is definitely a wide range of folk in the movement. The die hard poster artist that has wanted to do nothing else after high school than create gig posters . . . The designer that has found a way to make a living doing this . . . The artist that loves to create work for the public to see . . . The corporate designer that comes home and slaves away in his/her basement to get away from the computer . . . and the famous design firm that is known for their edgy posters, but also do other great work to pay the bills. I know that I didn’t describe everyone there and there is a myriad of combinations of the above people. You are all a wide range of creative people with different interests and goals. It has been fascinating hearing your passion through this thread.
Thank you for commenting.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:55 am
stylistically the “poster scene ” is SOOOO varried that it’s impossible to say it’s based on awards. much of the work i’m into is too weird/gross/freaky/loud to ever win awards. most of the award winning posters seem to be from the “graphic design ” camp , often done by people with a background and formal education in design. the thing is there are MANY types of people in the posters scene. folks doing stuff informed by comics, folk art , graffitti , various underground subcultures , outsider art ect.
generally you aren’t gonna see those types of posters in the annuals.
June 21st, 2006 at 1:26 am
hey bennett, dude, i checked out your portfolio. first, thanks for reasuring me, my choice not to go into graphic design was the right one. if i had to design stuff like that all day long, i’d shoot myself. you’re good at what you do. my big question is- who is ripping off who in that club(red) promotion? or did you design all the gear for the fight aides red ads too.
June 21st, 2006 at 8:44 am
Hey Richie;
If it’s all about doing and not talking, then why the fuck have you come back here and posted 10 times on the subject. Pretentious dickhead. Also, a free case of beer and a meal at the soup kitchen every now and then isn’t ‘ridiculous amounts of money’ – you’re a bigger poser than the so called posers you’re putting down.
June 21st, 2006 at 9:05 am
the fact is , the best and most relevant gigposters are *usually* done by people directly involved in the scene they are doing posters for. it’s really the only way to get it *right*.
June 21st, 2006 at 9:17 am
it’s really the only way to get it right.
I don’t doubt that this is one of the best ways to do gig posters, but I really doubt that it is the “only way to get it right”. With some research (seeing what else has been done and listening to the music, etc.) a good designer should be able to design a great poster without being completely embedded in the scene. I don’t need to be booking corporate jets to be able to design a logo for a corporate jet broker. It probably doesn’t hurt, but it is not the only way to get it right.
June 21st, 2006 at 9:28 am
the thing is , underground music is not corporate jets. you can’t really compare the 2 and if you do it means you just don’t get it.
June 21st, 2006 at 9:52 am
Seripop is absolutely right. Awards do not drive this scene. a few of us, me included, are graphic designers who also create gigposters. Generally, we are the guys that enter them into shows. It can help in promoting our studio, so we do it. But there is a very broad range of folk making these things and almost all of us have two simple things in common: 1) a love for music and 2) a desire to create things.
As far as devaluing deisgn and compensation go, you have to consider how much money is changing hands over the entire event. many of these posters are done for indie bands playing to crowds of 100-600 people. There’s not a lot of money being made by anyone. not the promoter, not the band. it’s usually a single night event. how much can a band or promoter really justify on commissioning a poster? a normal design fee for a job like a gigposter might be $1500-$3000. probably more than the band will get that night–it ain’t gonna happen. So, it’s generally true that the artists creating these posters don’t get paid much for the work. i don’t think that alone devalues design. These designers get vast creative freedom and they are usually allowed to sell thier work.
Also, bootlegs are not acceptable to gigposter artists. They are viewed with the same distain as spec work is by graphic designers.
June 21st, 2006 at 10:03 am
no time to read all the stuff, but really loved the goodtimes comments: shit or get off the pot. did a silkscreened laurie anderson/roger miller (mission of burma) poster in ’88 and haven’t done another one since. post-kozik the gig poster has crept back to the fore. over-hyped? sure. art? at their best.
can EVERY designer worth their salt do one? hmmmm….not so sure about that. dog food annual reports? put a gun to my head. making money? HEY we’re design sluts – we give it away, because we LOVE it, LOVE the band (or the cause, etc) – we’re not prostitutes. …okay, a little money never hurt.
there are books of gig posters from the 60s, 70s, …so there has been a resurgence and it too will be documented. but the notion that there are too many gig posters or too many doing them, is the same as the fact that there (it could be argued) are too many designers. or people calling themselves that.
and to follow up on the comment that a portfolio of gig posters won’t get someone a job….i had a student a couple of years ago who showed me his extra-curricular stuff: gig posters. he got my respect immediately as i knew 1) he was doing this because he love it , 2) he had to deal with clients, 3) his ideas were good to great. end of story? he’s ending up working with me (got his name in the credits of a few publications for our work) and he’s moved on to creating identities for local niteclubs now. and getting paid.
do what makes you happy, and don’t worry about the rest. but if i see another fucking modest mouse poster, i’m gonna kill someone…….
June 21st, 2006 at 3:26 pm
Hi Squid. Thanks for taking the time to write. When did you stop by my house and take a peek at my bank statement? I don’t think I know you. But obviously you have been over.
Well, at my own discretion I didn’t get too much work done yesterday cause I don’t have an actual boss to answer to but there is a ton of non gigposter design work I have to do today. See I do gigposters when it suits me and when my friends in bands ask me…and yes, if you take a look at the posters I have done, those bands are my friends.
Its funny. I got this new project last month based on the fact that I am a total asshole. Its for a corporation. Not like you could ever actually compete with me, Squid, but if we had been competing for this job, my ‘attitude’ would have would have trumped yours. See, Squid, sometimes being me is way more valuable than being you.
Today, I’m gonna get back to work, like I have been for the last couple hours before responding to this bullshit, and make more money today than you’re gonna make this week, due to this job I got because I made a couple gig posters and understand rock and roll in a way you never will.
Put up or shut up. Lets see the wrok.
June 21st, 2006 at 3:42 pm
Lets keep the discussion away from personal attacks from now on and try to keep on subject. Any more personal attacks (on me or anyone else), will be deleted.
June 21st, 2006 at 6:12 pm
I would just like to say that I think it’s great that Bennet asked these questions.
Posing these questions might make a poster designer think twice, or at least assess their motives and think about whether they are doing what’s best for them, the poster community and designers as a whole.
We should always question.
Nice Post.
June 22nd, 2006 at 7:14 am
i’ve been hearing these questions for a few years now. Many of my local design colleagues have been bitching about and questioning gigposters for some time now. Most of them now just dismiss them and don’t consider them ‘real work.’
It is a good post and always stirs up some good conversation. But i’m not sure if poster artists need to ‘think twice’ or ‘assess their motives.’ That sounds little condesending.
June 22nd, 2006 at 8:34 am
i think alot of the folks bitching about gigposters just have a case of sour grapes over the fact that some people get to make a living doing “fun” jobs like posters , record covers , tshirts and skateboard graphics while they have to design dog food annual reports or whatever and deal with art diirectors telling ‘em what to do.
i don’t care if what i do isn’t considered “real work” by a bunch of snobs , i just sit in my underwear all day and get paid to draw tripped out stuff for clients who give me 100% freedom. i have a great time doing what i do and find it profoundly satisfying to get to screenprint my own work. at the end of the day i don’t care if others wanna call it art , design , illustration , craft or garbage cause i love my life and am probably having more fun than the guys working in the corporate office making ads for pizza hut.
June 22nd, 2006 at 8:55 am
yep. you got it good, seripop! you guys do great work. As you know, i’m (lure from GP) one of those guys that does posters AND corporate work. So, my colleagues slagging gigposters gets to me now and then. But, for the most part, i just let it roll off now.
June 22nd, 2006 at 9:23 am
I think the people criticizing “dog biscuits” and “banks” really don’t understand graphic design. Design isn’t about making cool stuff for fun clients. If it was, then gig posters WOULD be the pinacle of design. Design is about finding the appropriate solution, not doing whatever you want. THAT is why gig posters generally AREN’T design. It is the challenge of making boring clients appear cool (as Nate said) that really shows the skill of a designer. I don’t care if people enjoy making posters and are willing to work for peanuts in exchange for artistic freedom, but let’s not elevate this activity above other forms of design. If anyone is being snobbish in this thread it is the poster people who think that what they are doing is better than real graphic design. It is that attitude which looks down on design that actually solves problems and serves a purpose that DEVALUES design. I am surprised and offended by the poster printers who can’t even communicate with graphic designers without taking offense to some very fair questions. I apologize in advance to the rational poster printers who are being overshadowed by the loud voices who think they are rock stars.
June 22nd, 2006 at 9:32 am
seripop, There are snobs in the more corporate graphic design world and snobs in the gig poster world. Just playing off a serious discussion as “sour grapes” is bypassing the issues. Sure there are designers out there that are jealous of your job, but there are also those that could care less what you are doing and are happy creating amazing work for a national restaurant chain.
As we have seen from a couple in this discussion, there are gig poster designers that think they are the only ones that create great creative work. There is some amazing work coming from gig poster designers and their is some great work coming from the national agencies and design firms. Just look at anything coming from Crispin + Porter. You can’t tell me that they aren’t pushing creative boundaries with their work. There is also plenty of mediocre work coming from both sides as well. The good thing is, that no one has exclusive rights to creativity.
Along those same lines, just because you hand make something doesn’t automatically make it great. It does ad another element, that can’t be argued. There are great gig posters and some that aren’t so great.
The world of design/visual communications is big and broad enough that we can all find our own niche.
June 22nd, 2006 at 10:17 am
Agreed Bennett, the world of graphic design is big enough for everyone to find a place. You asked me to comment earlier but I didn’t feel compelled until now.
Your original post has obviously stirred up some strong emotions. For 20 years I have played on both sides of the fence: I would be super psyched to design a dog food annual report, especially if the client was coming to me based off my poster work. And I would be super psyched to design a poster for Ween or about a thousand other bands. I don’t see a separation between design and illustration, the same as I don’t see a separation between gig posters and graphic design. I can admire Joe Duffy’s recent re-brand of “Fresca” because I understand the business savvy it takes to get a package design of that caliber into the mainstream. I also admire the work of Zeloot (working out of Rotterdam) for her raw energy, use of intense color and beautiful hand drawn type. And then there’s my good friend, a graphic design instructor, who recently re-did the identity of a boutique spa. Not only does she inspire her students to do their best work, she, in part, helped save this struggling small business from closing. I can’t imagine these people in the same room together but they do occupy the same space in my head.
I think one of the problems when discussing gigposters is that we are talking about our emotions, because music is an emotional experience. On more than one occasion I have heard a designer say that they think designing a gig poster is easy, but when given the chance they fail miserably. In my opinion, there are only a few dozen people who do it well and on a consistent basis. Some of the most inspiring work is coming from the gig poster world. If a little of that energy seeps into the mainstream I’m good with that too.
I for one, would love to see a Seripop ad for Pizza Hut.
June 22nd, 2006 at 10:18 am
Crispin Porter does great advertising. I struggle to find anything they have done that is ground breaking graphic design. Unless making a guy dress up in a chicken outfit and do silly stuff is design. And if that is design, then maybe arguing if band posters are design also is the least of our problems.
Maybe it would better for everyone involved if we stopped trying to putt labels on everything, and just try to make the work we have in front us the best we can, no matter what type of communication device it is.
I think that’s why poster art is getting so much notice, the people that are doing it are in love with the work they do. I know when I go out to drink with all you guys, LOVE and WORK are not two words that go together.
June 22nd, 2006 at 10:29 am
Adrian, while i agree it’s kind of silly for anyone to slag corporate design work, it’s also silly to slag gigposter work. And you kind of did so by saying that gigposters generally aren’t design. As Bennet points out, there is bad corporate work out there and there are bad gigposters out there. Good gigposters, like good corporate work, is about finding appropriate deisgn solutions. in my opinion.
And i don’t think anyone is trying elevate gigposters ABOVE anything. it’s just another form of communication art.
June 22nd, 2006 at 10:51 am
Robynne, Thanks for your insightful comments. I thought you would have a unique perspective on things. If a little of the energy and emotion seep out of the gig poster world, that would be welcome.
Allen, Some good thoughts as well. Yeah, Crispin Porter work may not be ground breaking design, but the are definitely creative thinkers. I was just trying to make the point that no one has a corner on the ground breaking creative market. I have also had a problem with defining what “ground breaking design” is. Is it figuring what is going to be the next hot trend, or . . . well . . . that is a whole other discussion.
June 22nd, 2006 at 10:52 am
Well Jeff, actually I am kind of saying that…
mainly that as a whole if you look what commercial art is capable of that the most influential work is being done in show posters, not that tomorrow it won’t shift and be something else. You know 6 years ago we were looking at what K10K, the Attik and Desinger Graphik were doing with the web and how much that influenced everything else, I just think that showposters are where the needle is pointing right now.
June 22nd, 2006 at 11:39 am
Really I think that the best design is going to happen where the best client experiences are. When you have clients that are willing to allow for experimentation and will risk going out on a limb for something that can really make them stand out. That’s when design wins, thats when what we do as designers can really change currents and create change.
But many clients aren’t in a position to risk or spend the money for the time it takes to stand out when they can just point at something and say we want to look as good as those guys or better, as long as we can do it for this much money and have it in all in a week. That’s not always their fault or me saying poo poo on them. It’s just the way it is a lot of the time, and that way puts some pretty heavy resrictions on what we can do. You can say “yeah but when a designer can do ground breaking stuff under those conditions that’s when a person is a real designer.” People keep talking about those cases, but I haven’t seen physical proof they really exist. I sure haven’t seen them in the annuals.
June 22nd, 2006 at 12:05 pm
I think this has gotten bogged down a little and many of us have had this conversation previously too many times to mention. Robynne is closest to the heart of the matter when she lumped all of her favorite designers together in her head. The work that she does and what we do or Lure or many others that are restless thinkers and find ourselves as excited by gigposters as we are by the prospect of doing an amazing one color public health leaflet – is the result of creative problem solving.
That is all design is – creative problem solving using visual tools. These tools are applied to gigposters in the same manner that they would be applied to a dog food AR. The results are different because the problems are different. No more. No less.
It is ALL legitimate design. Now get back to work slackers!
Marc’s point about seeing a portfolio showing the initiative to hunt down creative work should be taken to heart.
June 22nd, 2006 at 2:27 pm
John, I’ve heard others comment that this discussion is already worn out. I am curious as to where I can read these other discussions. I honestly didn’t want to poor salt on old wounds. Outside of the gigposter.com forum and the local bar, where else has this been discussed?
June 22nd, 2006 at 2:46 pm
I had this thought yesterday-
gig poster people are as varied in talent, skill, vision, fame, success, intent and integrity as the bands their work promotes.
I don’t think people who make the posters are defined into artist/designer camps because there is too much crossover to do so.
then I thought – it’s just posters!
there should probably be some kind of arm wrestling match over this subject.
June 22nd, 2006 at 3:26 pm
Hey B – I asked Doug at adcmw to see if he had our previous discussion on their listserv. For the record, he knows I hate posting to that thing yet he threw me under the bus asking about gigposters in the local show knowing full well that the only ones were from me (posters are maybe 5 percent of what we do, at best, yet the crazy judges that year threw 7 of mine in, 3 of which were gigposters, and nothing else – what can you do?) Otherwise he is a peach.
Unfortunately he didn’t have the saved e-mails. I have had this discussion privately with at least 10 of the 30 firms profiled in my book and almost every well known creative I have come in contact with who knows I do that kind of work or that I am a general champion of the poster as a medium.
I am happy to chit chat anytime as you know. I wish I had it all in one place. The trouble is that it always veers off track as it has here at times. The adcmw disintigrated into a “art vs. design” conversation that always never seems headed towards a consensus.
Debate is fun, but it is really enjoyable when you feel like you learned something which can go missing quickly in these clambakes.
One last point:
My favorite part is that designers who do not work in this field are like those straight out of college that want to design CD packaging. When your client is a musician or a writer or some other creative profession they ALWAYS feel as if they could add something to the equation. Creativity does not often translate across applications that way – how many great designers are brilliant musicians and why is there a Billy Joel doodle on the cover of this box set?????
These things are never as easy as they look. That is a trademark of great design – you don’t notice the kerning when it is perfect.
June 22nd, 2006 at 4:39 pm
Allen. yes, it seems we are saying the same thing. It does seem that show posters are where the needle is pointing right now. But, six years ago, were designers questioning the validity of Attik’s work? maybe they were, i just don’t remember.
June 22nd, 2006 at 4:48 pm
“Design isn’t about making cool stuff for fun clients.”
it is for some people and there ain’t nothing wrong with that. like stated above , there is plenty of room.
June 22nd, 2006 at 5:24 pm
Seripop,
Yes, design can be fun. Yes, design can be done for fun clients. You miss my point. Design is about problem solving, not doing whatever you want for a client who gives you freedom to make cool stuff. No, there isn’t anything wrong with that – unless you start calling it design. It isn’t design, it is getting paid to play with ink.
June 22nd, 2006 at 5:43 pm
well i guess i get paid to play with ink.
it fucking RULES.
i play with ink for bands , tv stations , film festivals , theater companies , art galleries , sex workers unions , indie films , radio stations , snowboard companies and magazines and i honestly couldn’t imagine a more satisfying job.
even with a carte blanche creatively there is problem solving to be done , it’s not like folks in my position disregard what needs to be done.
June 22nd, 2006 at 7:19 pm
Adrain – Sometimes the medium is the message. Your design definition is too narrow and reminds me of the old college fine art vs commercial art debate. In the end, I would much rather interact with design which has a “voice” than “graphic design that solves problems”, just because most design rarely does (I’m opening a can of worms here I know). If Seripop is able to attract clients that give her a long creative leash, and she’s able to make a living doing what she loves than more power to her.
June 22nd, 2006 at 10:34 pm
Seripop, I’m glad we got that straight. Best of luck to you.
Robynne,
Maybe your definition of design is too broad. Surely you don’t believe that design is just doing whatever you want as long as it looks cool. That is the main point I am trying to make. There has to be some purpose, otherwise it is just playing with ink. I think the good posters out there (usually the same ones that get recognized in competitions) do qualify as design for that reason. They communicate something more than “check this out.” My objection is pointed squarely at the few vocal people in this thread that seem to think making something cool automatically makes you a designer. That definition of design is dangerous to you and me because it devalues design. Designers do more than just make pretty things. At least I do.
June 22nd, 2006 at 11:00 pm
I can’t tell if you’re serious or joking? There’s nothing “dangerous” about accepting Seripop’s work as design, or any other person who does highly personal work – including Sagmeister, Victore, and a bunch of other people you may hold in high regard. I don’t think they are trying to make “cool art’ for you or me. They are doing smart work for clients who are willing to take risks and that should be applauded. Are they for everyone? Probably not. But if they are able to find clients that think the same thing (and appreciate how they “communicate”), then what is the big problem?
I’ll also add that the good posters out there are often not recognized in design competitions, at least not the ones that I find inspiring.
June 23rd, 2006 at 9:17 am
To clarify, I am joking with Seripop, and serious with you, Robynne. I have never seen Seripop’s work. If I had to guess, I suspect it has much more in common with good design than his “Dude, I’m awesome” attitude leads us to believe. It is the ATTITUDE I am responding to. I never said anything about doing “highly personal work.” I simply said that design is more than just doing whatever you want. If we can’t agree on that simple statement, I don’t see any hope of finding common ground in this thread.
June 23rd, 2006 at 10:35 am
Hey Adrian: Thanks for clarifying. There’s no denying that posters typically come with more creative freedom than other types of design projects. And I hear what you are saying about design being more than “whatever you want”, but……. I disagree with that statement also. I think it’s possible to attract clients that don’t art direct because they trust the designer/artist/illustrator they are hiring. This happens after a sizable body of work has been built. Personally, I won’t do a poster unless that groundwork is laid out at the start. That’s not to say I haven’t had a few posters rejected, but then I will start over with the same guidelines that I’m not art directed. I’m still providing my take (or solution). It is still design. Referring back to my original post I will simply state that the separation between graphic design and art is not so black and white for me, and I like it when the “boundaries” are blurred because when the day is over, labels (is it art? is it design? etc) don’t really matter. The work that is most appealing to me is when I can hear the voice of the designer – and that works the same for Dog Food Annual Reports or Pizza Hut ads.
Okay, I think I’m done
June 23rd, 2006 at 5:50 pm
Your ploy worked…I think the world is aware of your site now.
June 23rd, 2006 at 9:41 pm
Waterman, This post has set a new record for us as far as comments go … and having good discussions is actually one of the main goals of this site. While it is obvious that we had a good amount of new visitors from this post, we are not even on pace for a record month as far as unique visits. We have been around for over two years now and this is not the first time we have been recognized.
June 25th, 2006 at 5:38 pm
“My objection is pointed squarely at the few vocal people in this thread that seem to think making something cool automatically makes you a designer.”
I haven’t got that impression from anyone, personally.
June 27th, 2006 at 10:42 am
I’ll do whatever I can to keep art alive, even if it means doing a gig poster for cheap.
October 26th, 2006 at 10:09 am
Well…I’ve calculated it…I make about 3.2 dollars and hour doing posters for the venues I do them for. Devalue design? Please!!! Are there not many other places we se design today, that effect more people, and that we can take issue with?
So let’s see…and illustrator/designer trying to scrape by with a few band posters…or someone doing a huge promotion for say a large shoe company with 9 year old sweatshop workers…hmmm I just can figure out which camp to come down on…
Face it, you might just be a failed artist who is hidding behind “design” as an artform.
November 3rd, 2006 at 2:52 pm
Remeber the glory days of print and poster design, the late 60′s and early 70′s man.
I mean, remember the whole San Fran scene? Laurel Canyon?
It’s only rock and roll but I like it.
Being as i”m new to graphic design, being able to design some of these really beautiful, intricate posters would be awesome.
On the other hand, everyone copies eachother.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
WWRGD?
*(What Would Rick Griffin Do?)
mark jaquette @
ILLUSTRATIONism &
BAMm
March 18th, 2008 at 8:56 am
Wow… I’m a musician in need of someone to create gig posters and instead of finding that, I get routed to a heap of wax philosophy about whether this is bad or good for business. Art vs business vs art vs busienss.
ZzzzzZZZzzzzZZZ
You either create or you don’t.
If you want to eat and you love what you do, this is a no brainer. If you’d rather wear clothes from salvation army for the rest of your life, you can opt to stand up for indie cred and only choose projects that bring meaning to your work. In that case, you’ll end up doing nothing because someone, somewhere will always have a problem with your choices.
In the meantime, if anyone actually WANTS to work. give me a shout.
I’m off in search of doers…